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ńch, the nation might be haughty, obje&tion did not now exift. The and minifters might be proud, and surplus of the year 1786 was not might be tempted to involve the that tempting morsel, that seducing nation in rash wars, from the fa- bait, for the operation of which cility with which they could obtain upon a minister's integrity he en supplies. But, if the nation were tertained fo lively apprehensions. poor, if it were deeply involved in Lord Stanhope concluded with movdebt, if it were loaded with taxes ing a resolution, " that it was highwhich it could scarcely bear, mini- ly important to the public creditors, fters would not dare to involve this and necessary for the welfare of the country in expenlive wars without country, that a plan for the reducprovocation and without neceffi- tion of the national debt should be ty; for the nation would tear that rendered absolutely permanent ; minister in pieces, who, in the pre- and that it was therefore essential sent situation of our finances, should that the public faith should be fully involve the kingdom in a war, or pledged to individuals, by an exattempt to lay on an additional load press compact being entered into of taxes without a sufficient cause. between the state and the creditors, But the bill of Mr. Pitt tended to so that the breach of such a confubvert, as it were, the great system tract should be equivalent to an act of nature. For without making us of bankruptcy.” rich, it took from us any advantage Lord Loughborough and lord which we might derive from our Stormont paid very high compli. poverty:

ments to the suggestions of earl Earl Stanhope stated, that it was Stanhope. They declared, that a great advantage of the plan which they had never recollected 'a tirit he had now suggefted, that it might fpeech in that affembly, which was another year be grafted upon Mr. the circumstance under which lord Pitt's plan. The bill of the mini- Stanhope had spoken, that had fter was not defective so much on

come with more weight, or made a account of what it did contain, as more evident impression on the on account of what it ought to, but house. His ideas and their own, did not contain. It was his with, respecting the principles of the conthat Mr. Pitt's bill Mould pass with. ftitution, and the conduct which out a diffenting voice, in order to ought to be pursued at the present show foreign powers, that, what. moment, were perfealy similar. ever might be the differences of They however advised him to opinion in this country with re. withdraw his present motion. To fpect to politics, thdie was one sub- this lord Stanhope could not conject upon which we were unani- sent, as his, principal design in suga mous, a firm determination to re- gesting it had been to enter his opiduce our debt, and redeem our nion upon the journals of the houle. finances. People might wonder Lord Camelford replied to the ar. how he could reconcile it to his guments that had been employed. conscience to vote for fo defective He expressed his wishes, that the and so bad a bill. But his princi- house would proceed with such pal objection was, that a minister sound policy and extreme caution, might be induced to involve this as to avoid throwing the least dif. country into a war, in order to seize credit upon the bill, or giving the upon a large surplus ; and that world an idea that it was thought an imperfect measure. Nothing but they were over-ruled by the indeed was more desireable than sense of the majority. that the plan Mould be permanent ; On the same day, on which Mr. but it was impossible to give it a Pitt had originally moved his resohigher degree of permanency than lutions preparatory to the introducit would derive from the bill upon tion of his linking fund bill, a mef. the table. With regard to the pro- fage from the king was delivered to pofal of paying off the three per both houses of parliament, stating, cents at gol., lord Camelford " that it gave him great concern thought, that the plan of paying that it had not been found possible them off at the market price was to confine the expences of the ci. more advantageous for the public, vil liit within the annual sum of because it made a period of war the 850,00ol., now applicable to that time that it would be most easy for purpose. A farther debt had nedischarging the debt. The resolu. ceffarily been incurred, and the tion of lord Stanhope was set aside king relied on the zeal and affecby a previous question.

tion of parliament, that they would A motion was made by lord Stor- take the debt into their early conmont for a message to be sent to the fideration, and make such provi· house of commons, to know thesion as the circumstances might apgrounds upon which they had pear to require.” Upon the mopassed the bill, that by this means tion for taking this message into they might obtain a copy of the confideration, Mr. Pitt remarked, report of the select committee. He that, when the last regulation took reminded the house, that on a for- place with respect to the civil list, mer occafon the minister had of it was provided by parliament that his own accord sent up minutes of an annual deduction of 50,000l. the evidence, that the commons had fhould be made out of the allowheard at their bar, and which they ance for that purpose, for the paystated to have been the ground of ment by installments of a debt of their proceedings in the case of the 300,000l., due upon exchequer Irish propositions. A metlage was bills, which had been itsued to lupdrawn up by the duke of Rich- ply the former deficiencies of the mond, and appeared at the mo- lift. He put bis argument from ment to have received the counte. this circumstance into the form of nance of Mr. Pitt; but it was dit a dilemma. Either parliament had covered upon further enquiry, that directed, that at a future period the no precedent could be found for a civil lift was to be allowed 50,000l. compliance with such a demand ; more than was necessary, or it was and of consequence the house of put for the present upon a footing commons, upon the motion of the of 50,00ol. less than was necessary minister, returned an answer to that Experience had proved the latter purpose. Lord Loughborough and to be the case. It had been found lord Stormont relitted all farther perfectly impracticable to meet all proceedipgs upon the bill of Mr. all the demands with 870,occi, Pitt, upon the ground that the and a fresh debt of 30,cool, had house had not before them the in. accrued in addition to the sum of formation which they had already 180,0ool., which yet remained undeclared to be cilentially necetiary; paid of the exchequer bills. He should therefore move for a fum, concerns, he thought the proper equal to the amount of both hefé way was to have sent out a person taken together, to be granted to de- to afliit him, whole rank in life fray all incumbrances, and of con- would not have rendered it improsequence that the full fum of per for him to act in a subordinate 900,000l. fhould remain for the capacity. Mr. Pitt replied as to annuai expenditure of the civil lit. the appointment of an ambassador

Mr. Drake paid many compli- to Madrid, that, at the time of lord ients to the moral and religious Chelterfield's nomination, there wa .character of the foveri ign; but the not ans room to expect that an ampreiling necellity of the times ren- baffador would not have been difdered oeconomy in every part of patched from that court. As foon as the public expenditure indispensably it was discovered our representative neceflary. All ranks of people muil was topped from proceeding any make it their first object, and it was farther. The matter had remained the duty of the crown in particular long in fufpence, and as soon as to set the example. Mr. Drake re- any certainty had been obtained, marked upon the very large ap- lord Chesterfield was finally recalled. pointments of certain patent offices Several questions were put to the in the houshold, and his objections minister, respecting the future inwere antwered by Mr. Pitt. Mr. come of the prince of Wales, by Po vy's confefled himself aware of Mr. alderman Newnham, Mr. the indelicacy of seeming to object Sheridan and Mr. Fox. By the againit the motion ; but, before he latter it was remarked, that he could give his confent, he expected knew no proper method of bringto hear Mr. Pitt pledge himtelf to ing the business before the house, the house, that he had used his ut. but by mcflage from the crown, most attention to prevent the debes and he earnelily hoped ministers being incurred by any unnecefiary would advise the fovereign accordexpences. Was he to believe, that ingly. If thy did not, he thould no amballidors had been appointed himself venture to introduce the to foreign courts, and maintained butiness previously to the rising of on high salaries, while they were in parliament. The motion of Mr. fact perfectly inefficient, and had Pitt was ultimately voted. not even once for years together. In both houses the present dereached the court to which they maid in favour of the civil litt was were appointed ? Was he to con. contralied with the bill of Mr. sider the having two ambaffadors Buike for regulating the payment upon separate eitablishments at Pa- of the civil lit expences, by which ris, as a test of economy? He ac. it was expressly enacted, that no knowledged, that Mr. Eden was as debt under that head should in fua well qualified for the talk of nego- ture be incurred, and with the ciating a commercial treaty, as any speech from the throne in Decem. man in the country ; but he had ber 1782. It was absurd to let Mr. ever underifood, that commercial as Burke's bill remain in full force, well as political matters were under and yet come down in the face of the care of the ambaffador; and if an act of parliament, and call upon the duke of Dorfet cither had not the house to vote inoney for debts leisure, or was not competent to of the crown. The speech that was enter into the detail of commercial alluded to had been delivered at a time, when the principal ministers ed as he was, and plainly forefce. in both houses of parliament were ing that he should not long preside in high office; and its language at the helm, he thought the last was very explicit. " I have car. and best earnest, which he couki ried into strict execution the several give to his country of his wish to reductions in my civil list expences, further its welfare,' was to tie down directed by an act of the latt fel. the civil list and expenditure withfion. I have introduced a farther in certain bounds; and, as he then reform into other departments, and flattered himself, to put it totally fuppressed several finecure places out of the power of any minifter in them. I have by this means fo to make any fresh demand upon the regulated mv eltablishments, that country. Lord Lansdown accountmy expence thall not in future ex• ed for the errors that had been ceed my income.”

found in the estimate, by describing The allusion to this speech gave the time at which it had been drawn. birth to an altercation between the It was well known, that after his marquis of Lansdown and lord vis- resignation fix weeks had passed count Stormont. The last of these away before the new administration noblemen, as well as the duke of was fixed; and all that time his Portland professed to have examined name remained at the treasury, the estimate of the expenditure of though he was in fact out of office. the civil list, which had been pro- In the course of the time it was difduced during the administration of covered by the clerks, that, accordthe marquis of Lansdown, and ing to an act of parliament, a paper they had found a surplus of no respecting the civil litt was to be more than 2471. It was highly laid on the table of the house of blameable under these circumstances commons by the fourth of April. to have pledged the royal word, They were a good deal alarmed ; that his bencficiencies and his ex- and, having come to him upon the traordinary expences should for the occasion, he had signed the paper. future be confined within the limits It was in fact however nothing of fo paltry a sum. There were more than a loose paper, hasily besides several glaring errors in the made out by the clerks of the treaestimate. The embaily to Holland fury, without any sort of fuperinhad been totally omitted, and the tendance, without the fanction of article of presents to foreign minif. any board, without appearing on ters had been eliimated at a sum, the minutes, or being in any way which was notoriously inferior to a master of official record. Lord the real expence. Lord Lansdown Lansdown at the same time moved entered into a justification of his for a minute of the board of treaproceedings. His administration sury of the fourteenth of March continued only fix months, during 1783, from which it appeared, that, which time he had made an annual according to his system, there would faving, by striking off various fine- be a surplus for the extraordinary Cure and useless places, to the expences of the sovereign of 8,9861, amount of 116,000 1.; and he was At the period of voting the estiproceeding to abolish a ftill greater mates of the navy on the first of number. This had induced him to March, some observations were sug, advise his fovereign to make use of gefted by captain Macbride, that the language in question. Situat. appear to deserve to be recorded.


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He censured extremely the voting expected, that motives of delicacy very large sums for the repairof fixty would have prevented the agitation and fixty-fourgun fhips, and observe of the subject in the house of comed, that our having so many vessels mons; and he was sure, that upon of this fort was a principal reason of cooler reflection captain Macbride the many defeats we had suffered in would be of opinion with him, that the last war. The French had not discussions of this kind could not now inore than three or four tixty, be publicly brought forward with., four gun lliips, and they took care out manifest impropriety and dannot to build any new ones upon ger, Mr. Hussey replied, that this that construction. Another thing was a doctrine that could by no against our navy was, that the means be admitted, at the moment French feventy-four gun ships were that the house was going to vote of two thousand tons burthen, while away 14,0col. or 16,000l. of the our seventy-fours had been reduced people's money for useless or pernito one thousand lix hundred tons. cious purposes. Parliainent, upon Captain Macbride verily believed, occasion of the fortifications, had that, if the number of our thips Mown, that there was tțill fome fpiwere reduced by one third, the na- rit and virtue left in the nation., vy of England would prove one A great many gentlemcu had the third the itronger. He was till more welfare of their country ar heart, fevere in his condemnation of the and all those would certainly join abfurd System of suffering the ships and support the gallant officer in. to remain in their copper bottoms his enquiry. The estimates were during a time of peace. If we carried without a division. perfiited in this idea, there would A subject relative to the supplies, be no occalion to argue whether which excited fome animadversion, thips of one size or another should in the house of commons, was in, be built, for we Mould soon have relation to some buildings carrying no navy in our possession. The on at the admiralty, and the exFrench had discovered the folly of pence of which was eriimated at the practice, and for some time had 13,cool. The subject was originleft off the mode of sheaching their ally, introduced by Mr. Jolliffe. thips. We ought therefore to do The measure was vindicated by Nir. the same, or at least to take off the Brett and Mr. Hopkins, two lords copper when the flips were to lie of the admiralty, who itate.l, that, long in fill water. The copper the offices of the clerks in that decorroded, and eat more into their partinent were so narrow, as to be, bolts than either worms or time. totally inadequate to their purpose, The consequence would be, that, and to occalion many inconvenia the instant the ships which had long encies. Mr. Jolliffe observed in laid by were sent to sea, their boto reply, that he found in the plans, toms would drop out, and thou- submitted to the house several rooins sands of brave feamen would perish of such a description as usually in the ocean. The ideas of cap- constituted an elegant manlior, bus rain Macbride were confirmed by nothing that relembled, offices for tir John Jervis ; and fo far as re clerks. It was answered, that the lated to the heathing with copper, prefent dwelling-house of lord Howe by captain Luttrel. Sir Charles was to be converted into offices and Dliddleton comptroller of the navy; room for papers, and that the new 1786.



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