and the Government will also use its utmost endeavours to secure the acceptance of the Bill by the voters. S. H. Parker.

30th March, 1900.

Nr. 13138. GROSSBRITANNIEN. - Bericht über eine Beratung der australischen Delegierten mit dem Kolonial

minister.

Present:

London, 5. April 1900.

The Right Honourable Joseph Chamberlain, M. P., the Secretary of State for the Colonies, presiding. The Right Honourable the Earl of Selborne, Under Secretary of State for the Colonies. Sir RichardE. Webster, Bart., Q.C., M.P., Her Majesty's Attorney-General. Sir Robert B. Finlay, Q.C., M.P., Her Majesty's Solicitor-General. Sir Courtenay P. Ilbert, K.C.S.I., C.I.E., Parliamentary Counsel. The Right Honourable C. C. Kingston, Q.C., from South Australia. The Honourable E. Barton, Q.C., from New South Wales. The Honourable A. Deakin, from Victoria. The Honourable J. R. Dickson, C.M.G., from Queensland. The Honourable Sir Philipp Fysh, K.C.M.G., Agent-General, representing Tasmania. A. G. Berry, Esq., Secretary to Federation Delegation. S. H. Parker, Esq., Q.C. from Western Australia. The Honourable W. Pember Reeves, Q.C., Agent-General, respresenting New Zealand. The Honourable Sir R. G. W. Herbert, G.C.B. H. Bertram Cox, Esq. John Anderson, Esq., C.M.G.

Mr. Chamberlain: Gentlemen, with the assent of the other delegates, our first business is to ask the gentlemen who represent New Zealand and Western Australia whether they have anything to add to the statements which they have put in for our consideration, and perhaps I will ask Mr. Parker in the first place to say whether he would like to add anything to what has already been said in his memorandum. Mr. Parker: Mr. Chamberlain, perhaps you, sir, and the gentlemen present will pardon me if I only say a few words, because I feel I am hardly in a condition to say anything. I think my fellow delegates from the Australian Colonies will all admit that it is most desirable to consummate their work by federating the whole of Australia.

Several Delegates: Hear, hear.

Mr. Parker: While one-third is excluded from the Australian Federation their work can hardly be said to be complete. Now, Western Australia it is admitted by the Bill and I need not go beyond the Bill - it is

admitted in the Bill in the strongest terms that Western Australia is not so fitted to federate with the neighbouring Australian Colonies as the larger and older Colonies are. Its industries, particularly so far as agriculture is concerned, are in comparatively an infant state. They require fostering; and it was recognised by the Convention and in the Commonwealth Bill that in order to foster these industries Western Australia should retain its duties as against the neighbouring Colonies for a period of five years. The Commonwealth Bill provides that these duties shall be reduced annually by one-fifth, so that in five years they die out entirely. Now, it was felt by the Committee of the Joint Houses of the Legislature of Western Australia, that this was not only not sufficient protection for these new industries and for the agriculturalist, but also that an annual alteration of duties would greatly injure and disturb trade, and therefore it was recommended by the Joint Legislative Committee that these duties should be continued as a whole for the period of five years. The Joint Select Committee of the two Houses recommended several other amendments to the Bill, but after due consideration the Government of the Colony have authorised me to state that they will be prepared to do their utmost to bring Western Australia into the Federation as an original state if the Bill can be so amended that Western Australia may retain its duties as against the neighbouring Colonies for a period of five years. I need not delay the meeting, because the gentlemen who come from the neighbouring Colonies, who are particularly interested in the subject, are just as well aquainted with the arguments that I might use as I am myself, but I may point out that it is very little we ask, and we have a great deal to give. We are prepared to give one-third of the area of the whole of Australia. We do not ask for any alteration in the principle of the Bill, we simply ask for the alteration of the amount of the duties which the Bill proposes to give us. Instead of being reduced to four-fifths, three-fifths, two-fifths and one-fifth, we ask the whole for five years. I might point out, Mr. Chamberlain and gentlemen, that Western Australia is very peculiarly situated as regards Federation because of its comparatively isolated state. In order to reach Sidney from Perth it will take a representative of Western Australia about the same time as it would take to go from London to New York. There is no railway communication and we can only travel by sea to South Australia and thence by rail. I take it that the capital of Federated Australia will be somewhere in New South Wales, near Sydney, therefore, Western Australia will be very considerably handicapped in the way of representation until she is united by a railway with the neighbouring Colonies. Well, Western

Australia also, so far as its revenue is concerned, collects a great bulk of it by means of customs dues, and it is estimated that she will lose about £300 000 a year if she federates with the Australian Colonies. But notwithstanding this, notwithstanding the difficulty of representation, notwithstanding the fact that we cannot really be united with the rest of Australia until we have a railway, still the Government of Western Australia is prepared to accept all these disadvantages if we can have the Bill amended in the one particular which I have mentioned. || Now, sir, it has been pointed out to me that the delegates from the neighbouring Colonies are instructed to do their utmost to have this Bill passed by the Imperial Parliament without any amendment whatever, and I take it that if the Imperial Government adopt the view of the delegates there will be little hope of my obtaining any amendment in favour of Western Australia. But if, as I anticipate, the Bill will be amended in some particulars by the Imperial Legislature, then it seems to me there can be no reason why it should not also be amended in the minor matter which I have mentioned as affecting Western Australia, because after all it is a very minor matter compared to the amendment that is proposed to be made by the Imperial Government as regards the Privy Council and other matters mentioned in the memorandum which has been furnished to us. The reason why it has been said that the Bill ought not to be amended is that a further referendum will be necessary to the people of Australia. Well, this ground will be cut away entirely if the Bill is amended at all, and it will let in the opportunity for the amendment which I desire on behalf of my Colony, and I hope and trust that the delegates from the neighbouring Colonies will see their way, sir, to suggest to you a mode by which, if this Bill is amended at all, Western Australia may be admitted as an Original State on the terms she asks.

The Hon. W. Pember Reeves: Mr. Chamberlain and Gentlemen: I, like Mr. Parker, have but little to say, but I should like to lay some stress, as he did, upon the peculiarity of our position. While we are not so geographically placed as to be quite one of the Australian Colonies, we are so placed that no other part of the Empire has quite the same interest in them and in this Bill as we have. We are not contiguous with them, but we have the ties of intercourse and trade. Our people meet them in business daily, and this Bill which is to be passed, and which is to lay down the lines of the Commonwealth, establishing it for all time - at any rate for generations to come will affect us whether we come into the Federation or whether we stand out. Our position, in short, is not an enviable one. We stand to lose if we stay out. We

stand in the opinion of a great many of our people, to lose also if we go in hurriedly and without due consideration. We have a very large and valuable trade in Australia. For the last ten years that trade has averaged something over £2 500 000 a year, which, to a small community like New Zealand, is a matter of considerable moment. If we stay out of the Federation it is our belief that we shall lose a part of that trade. On the other hand, if we come in we shall take on ourselves of course a portion of the burdens of Federation, and we do not at present see, or at any rate a considerable number amongst us do not see, that our interests are identical enough with those of Australia to make it prudent enough for us to hasten into Federation. We think, in fact, that it may be necessary for us to make some special arrangements. This may lead to delicate and careful negotiations. That, sir, is our main reason for the caution and the hesitation which our people have shown during the last 10 years. If, as I say, we stay out of the Federation, our interest in this Bill is not merely confined to its effect upon our trade - the effect which any customs tariff imposed on Australia may have upon our trade but, as we shall meet the Australians in business every day, we may come into collision with them, as people in business do come into collision, over such matters as fisheries and other parts of trade and industry. That is why the legal clauses of this Bill are a matter of special interest to us, even if we do not come into the Federation. || It may be said, sir, that the relations of Australia and New Zealand in regard to this Bill are purely a matter of domestic concern are domestic matters which Colonists should settle amongst themselves and with which Her Majesty's Government have no concern. That I do not admit. No matter which concerns two distinct portions of the Empire is a matter purely of domestic concern to one of them. No matter which requires Imperial legislation is a matter of domestic concern to one of them. No matter which requires Imperial legislation is a matter of domestic concern. For this Bill to become operative is an Imperial concern requiring Imperial interference and Imperial settlement. It may be said, it has been asked, why did we not ask for this concession, for it is a concession, before? The answer to that is, sir, first of all we have looked on at the discussion of Federation in Australia from our own standpoint a standpoint of isolation; we have looked on and watched what has been going on. We have seen up till the middle of last year the whole question of

Federation in solution. We have seen to a certain extent a conflict of ideas and a conflict of interests. We had no one ordered, settled, established body to negotiate with, and we did not know until July that

the greatest Colony of the Continent, the Colony of New South Wales, would adopt Federation in the form in which it had been settled by the Convention. We were to a large extent misinformed. In the judgment of many of us New South Wales was not going to accept the Convention. As it happened, New South Wales did accept it, and by a clear majority, although after a very keen difference of opinion amongst her people. Since that moment we have had no opportunity of getting any amendments into the Commonwealth Bill. From that moment the principle was laid down that any further amendments in the Commonwealth Bill could not be considered out there. When I say that, I rely upon the telegrams sent by the leading statesmen of the proposed Commonwealth to Sir John Forrest, which I think were sent in the last week of last September. We therefore have had no opportunity of asking for this concession until now; and it does appear to us now that now is the proper time; and that, as the Bill had to come Home and be dealt with by the Imperial Parliament, the proper tribunal to approach is the Imperial Parliament, and we appeal to that Imperial tribunal now. || It is not the case that the people of New Zealand have declared themselves against Federation. It is not the case that the Prime Minister of New Zealand has declared himself against Federation. Mr. Seddon, in speaking before Parliament last Session, challenged anybody to say that he had ever declared himself opposed to Federation; his position is simply one of cautious examination. And that, in fact, is the position of the majority in New Zealand. A movement has been growing in favour of Federation with Australia. As far as I can understand, it is still growing. Therefore I think our request cannot be dismissed as a mere wanton meddlesomeness, as mere wanton interference at the last moment in order that we might appear to be doing something. Our request is the result of the growing feeling in New Zealand that we shall have to face the question of Federation with Australia, that we shall have to make up our minds-and that pretty soon whether we are definitely coming in, or whether we are prepared to accept the consequences of standing out. But we wish to have time, sir reasonable time, given us to make up our minds; and I submit that, in consideration of our peculiar position a position which has called for caution, which has demanded caution, in which caution. has been our duty, that it is not unreasonable of us to ask for a fair time in which to come to this momentous decision. I am dealing now, and I have been dealing, entirely with the first amendment, that is the one which 'asks that the open door should be left for us for a certain time, because, although no time is specified, I frankly admit that some

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