is what we wish to understand. The | look upon it as a positive necessity that change of policy has in itself been sufficient to cause the most extraordinary reports to appear in the newspapers, and has, I believe, had the most injurious effect upon the state of Ireland; and, in my opinion, except for the report of an understanding having been arrived at between Her Majesty's Government and the Leaders of the Land League, the awful and horrible murders in the Phoenix Park would never have been committed, for there can be no doubt that report was the direct cause of their occurrence. There is an extreme Party in Ireland, who, whether attached to the Land League or not, look upon the Leaders of that movement as having the same aims and objects in view as themselves, and that is nothing less than the dismemberment of the Empire. That extreme Party, believing that they had been sold by Mr. Parnell, and not wishing to bring about separation by so curious a process as an alliance with the English Government, resolved to make it quite clear that no compromise was possible, and, therefore, they carried out their bloody and infamous work. If it had been clear to these men that no compromise at all had taken place, I do not, for one moment, believe those murders would ever have been committed. My Lords, the position we have arrived at is, that disclosures have been made which point out that there were negotiations between the Government and the Land League; and, whether those negotiations resulted in what has been called the "Treaty of Kilmainham" or not, we have a proof in the resignation of Mr. Forster that he, at any rate, believed that they resulted in a compact. I have been informed that upon the same date upon which Mr. O'Shea visited Mr. Parnell there was another gentleman, who has been described to me, and who visited Mr. Parnell directly afterwards, and there is, I believe, no record of his visit in the book of the gaol; therefore, if this be true, it would appear that, at any rate, he must have been authorized by the Government to attend at Kilmainham. I should like to know from noble Lords opposite whether there is any truth in the report that another gentleman visited Kilmainham by the direction of the Government; and, if so, whether noble Lords opposite will tell us who that other gentleman was? I

we should have full and clear information about the whole of these transactions. My Lords, I think it a most terrible thing that there should be an idea in the minds of the people of Ireland, and in the minds of the people of this country as well, that it was possible that any arrangement could have been come to by the Government of this great Empire with the Leaders of a conspiracy whom the Government themselves have denounced as traitors, whom they have imprisoned for treasonable practices, and who they have, over and over again, declared are mainly responsible for the murder, mutilation, and anarchy which exist in Ireland. But facts are stubborn things, particularly if no explanation be given; and the publication of this extraordinary Correspondence, coupled with the resignation, in the circumstances I have named, of Mr. Forster, is likely to lead everybody to the belief that there was an arrangement of some kind or other between those who are responsible for administering the law of the land and those who, the Government themselves have said, have set their unwritten law above the law of the land, and who have enforced the decrees of that unwritten law by outrage and mutilation. Well, my Lords, we have no information except Mr. Parnell's letter and Mr. Forster's minute; the Government have vouchsafed nothing to us, or to the country, except an indignant denial of any compact; we do not know whether negotiations are still going on or not. We do not know anything with regard to the position of the Government in the former negotiations. Under the peculiar circumstances of the case, I do not think that a simple denial is sufficient for the people of England. If there is nothing to hide, why should not the whole Correspondence be made public? It is not like a Correspondence with foreign nations; therefore, why should not the full Correspondence be produced, so that the Government can distinctly show the people of Ireland that they are entirely wrong as to their belief that any surrender has been made by the Government to traitors, and to clear up all the doubt and anxiety which exist, at present, largely among the people of England? My Lords, in the interests of all future Governments in Ireland, in the interests of the good government of this

before. I have spoken of what I con- | to define and limit his responsibility in

sider the great evil of what was done by the release. I also am sorry that the question of arrears has been mixed up in the matter. I am not going to refer to the Bill before Parliament; but I think I may say, without being out of Order, that it is a very delicate matter, and everybody admits that it is most unusual, and contrary to a great many principles which many of us are accustomed to consider sacred. As it is, however, it will be defended successfully or unsuccessfully perhaps successfully by the necessities of the occasion; but that it should in any way be supposed to be a sop to the people, to induce them to come forward in the cause of law and order, I cannot admit for a moment. I have said this much openly as to what my judgment is on the policy adopted by Her Majesty's Government; but I certainly do not wish to associate myself with those men of extremely violent views who have made imputations and remarks almost personal in their character upon the Government. I cannot see that there is much force in what has been so often said about an agreement. It has been denied by men of the highest honour, and I am perfectly willing to believe what they have said, that there was nothing in the shape of an agreement. I am also perfectly willing to believe, and I am perfectly willing to admit, that these men could not have been kept in prison for ever. They must have been let out sooner or later, at some time or other; and when the Government received information which induced them to believe that these men would no longer stir up the country, or be instrumental in causing disturbance, there was, I will admit, a difficulty in confining them any longer. They were confined in prison on reasonable suspicion of being the cause of that disorder, and for that reason only. Therefore, there is more, as I have said, in the way it was done than in the doing of the act itself. I was anxious to be able to make this explanation, and am much obliged to your Lordships for the patience with which you have listened

to me.

LORD CARLINGFORD: My Lords, my noble Friend the noble Earl who has just sat down (Earl Cowper) is fully entitled to refer to the release of the "suspects" in whatever terms he pleases, and

the matter. I am not inclined to make any comment on that part of his speech; but with respect to the evil consequences which he supposes-I do not understand upon what grounds or on what authority have followed upon that decision of the Government, I am bound to differ from him. I know of no reasons whatever for that opinion. Her Majesty's Government know of no reason for it; and both with respect to the release of Mr. Parnell and his Friends under the particular circumstances of the case, and with respect to the prospect of good to be done in Ireland by the measure dealing with the arrears of rent, which I hope will before long come before your Lordships; on both of those subjects I can only say that Her Majesty's Government, according to their information and my noble Friend's Successor in the Office of Viceroy, upon whose information the Government to a great extent depend, differ from the opinion just expressed. I now come to the Motion of the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Waterford), and I confess I find it difficult to deal with the cloud of questions which he has raised. The whole thing resolves itself into this-that the noble Marquess thinks that there is some great mystery-of which we and Parliament know nothing-that there are some great revelations which might be made if only the Government were inclined to make them. All I can say is, that there is no mystery, and that there are no revelations to make. Parliament already knows all that can be known as to the release of the " suspects; " and when the noble Marquess asks mysteriously about the certain other visitors and other communications made to Mr. Parnell in Kilmainham, I can only say I do not even know to what he refers. I cannot speak positively upon the matter, for by whom Mr. Parnell might have been visited I do not know; but my impression is that there was no other visitor whatever of such a kind as that alleged by the noble Marquess, and most certainly there was no visit on the part of the Government.

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD: Would there not be a record of the visits which took place in the gaol books?

LORD CARLINGFORD: I have never heard the story before. I am not, however, surprised at the speech of my noble Friend, because we have heard of so

many similar speeches made elsewhere. 'their exceptional powers by the GoMy noble Friend's first Notice, which vernment under the Act of last year. was given before Whitsuntide, I heard That question has been dealt with by the many people describe as a bad joke; Government upon the best knowledge and I must say that his speech to-night, they could obtain, under all the circumgave such a description of these transac- stances of the case, in view of the whole tions, and drew such a picture of them, situation, and with a single eye to the that I can only describe it as a travestie public interests and to the restoration of or caricature of the facts. As regards, tranquillity in Ireland. We have heard the release of the "suspects," it is hardly a good deal about "negotiations," necessary for me to remind your Lord-"treaty," and so on; but I do not acships of the situation of these Gentlemen at the time they were confined in Kilmainham, and of the rights and duties of the Government in respect to them. One would have supposed, to hear the noble Marquess, that these Gentlemen were prisoners under sentence, and that the Government had weakly and indulgently released them, and set them free from the remainder of their sentences. I need hardly say that the position was a totally different one to that. These persons were put in prison under a most exceptional law, entirely and absolutely as a matter of precaution, because we believed their conduct was dangerous to the tranquillity of the country. It was necessary, at the time of their arrest, that that conduct should be put an end to. But if the Government, at any time, had reason to believe that that danger to the public tranquillity no longer existed from these persons being at large, it was evidently their bounden duty to consider such circumstances, and to consider whether they were entitled even legally entitled under the terms of the Act-to keep these persons in confinement. And if they had reason to believe that these persons had the intention, and were ready to announce that intention, to refrain from dangerous agitation in the future, that obligation upon Her Majesty's Government was, of course, greatly increased. The question then arose in that way-namely, whether the time had come or not when these Gentlemen should be released. I should like to know how long the noble Marquess opposite intended to keep Mr. Parnell and his friends in prison? Well, the question arose whether the time had come when it was still necessary or unnecessary to keep them under arrest; and the matter was treated, not as a matter of negotiation, but as an administrative question, and as a most serious administrative question, in the exercise of

Lord Carlingford

cept any of those terms, and for one simple reason-that after all this took place, the Government were absolutely free to deal with every Irish question as they thought best. We were under no engagements whatever which_bound or hampered our conduct; but I can very well imagine that these proceedings might have taken a form which might have been called by the name “negotiations," and which yet would have been totally harmless. I can imagine, for instance, Mr. Parnell asking what declaration on his part would have been held sufficient, and that would have amounted to something which might be called negotiation; indeed, I do not understand how any step could have been taken for the purpose of obtaining a pledge from these Gentlemen, which was the view taken by my right hon. Friend (Mr.W.E. Forster), in opposition to his Colleagues, without something which might in some sense be called a negotiation taking place. But it so happens that that was not the course the Government chose to adopt; and, at the eleventh hour, they found themselves bound to differ from the right hon. Gentleman the late Chief Secretary for Ireland, and they did not adopt that process. An intimation was first made by Mr. Parnell through a friend, and afterwards a letter was written by him, which he himself read in the House of Commons. The fact was that the communications from Kilmainham came absolutely uninvitedproffered voluntarily to the Government, and, therefore, suddenly, as my noble Friend has termed it. I have a right to ask whether the Government were to pay no attention to such declarations on the part of these detained persons? The Government believed that they were bound to pay attention to these communications so volunteered, and that they were bound to make inquiry in order to ascertain whether the reports which reached them as to what Mr. Parnell said were accurate, as they were at

first not under the hand of Mr. Parnell; | any negotiation, if the noble Marquess and the whole of their action in the mat- insists upon the word, or any communiter was directed to the point of ascertain- cations from Kilmainham, in order to ing the authenticity of these documents ascertain that fact. We knew it from and of knowing what Mr. Parnell in- the introduction of the Bill, on the back tended. They took those declarations as of which was the name of Mr. Parnell, being what they were-namely, those of and which gave rise to the debate in a Gentleman-and they were regarded which the Prime Minister gave his pubby the Government in view of the whole lic adhesion to the propriety of a settlesituation of affairs in Ireland at that ment of the arrears question. That, it time. There was much then, as there is should be noted, is the only promise now, in the state of Ireland to cause of any kind, either public or private, anxiety; but the Government saw how that has been given by the Prime Midifferent the state of the country was nister. But Mr. Parnell did not invent from the condition of things last Sep- the question of arrears. It has been tember, when Mr. Parnell and his friends felt by us for months past to be a were arrested. We were convinced, most serious question, and one which speaking broadly, that the "no rent" must inevitably be dealt with by the policy of the Land League had broken Government. Parliament made an atdown; and we were also convinced that tempt to deal with it last year, in the among the Irish tenantry-probably the Land Act; but, unfortunately, the atbulk, certainly the best of them-there tempt has proved to be a failure; and was a desire for quiet and tranquillity; the very fact of that failure increases the a desire to return to a state of law and obligation of the Government to endeaorder, and to devote themselves to their vour to provide a remedy. Surely the industry under the greatly improved noble Marquess will not condemn the tenure which Parliament had conferred decision of the Government to deal with upon them. The Government also had the question of arrears, simply because regard to the communications in con- on that point they are in agreement with nection with the Bill, and the debate Mr. Parnell and the Land League. upon the Bill introduced into the House of Commons by Mr. Redmond and Mr. Healy, and upon the back of which was the name of Mr. Parnell himself-we saw, in that Bill and in the debate upon it, a willingness on the part of the Land League to make the best of the settlement of the Land Question upon which Parliament had decided, and to withdraw from the violent attitude exhibited by them last autumn. We took the declarations which were proffered from Kilmainham in connection with all these facts, and we made up our minds that the time had come when it was safer to put an end to the detention of these Gentlemen than to keep them in prison any longer. That is about the whole history of the matter. But my noble Friend says, "You now give the Land League this Bill dealing with arrears;" and he seems to think that there is something disgraceful in the fact that the Government should have brought in an Arrears Bill, with regard to which they agree with Mr. Parnell and the Land League. Now, Mr. Parnell is, no doubt, very anxious that this critical question of arrears should be effectually settled; but we did not require

VOL. CCLXX. [THIRD SERIES.]

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD: I never mentioned arrears at all in my speech.

LORD CARLINGFORD: I beg pardon. I was under the impression that my noble Friend had done so in connection with this question. If he has not, he is certainly the only person who has attacked the Government on this matter without dragging in the Arrears Bill. But the agreement of Mr. Parnell in that measure is not a condemnation of it, and ought not be one; for I should like to remind the noble Marquess that there is another question of far more permanent interest-namely, the question of the purchase of the property of the landlords by their tenants, in which Mr. Parnell was also very much interested, and upon which the noble Marquess and his Friends appeared to me to be pretty much at one with Mr. Parnell himself. They have made a proposal which would, if carried out, abolish landlordism in Ireland to a great extent, and they, like ourselves, have not been deterred in this matter by the fact that they are in agreement with the Land League on that point. Whether the Government will be able to follow

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