18,871. Are these appeals frequent ?- No, they are not frequent; there are only one or two cases in each year.

18,872. Now, as regards Form B. (Appendix C. IX. 5), that is prepared, I presume, by the administration of mines for the purpose of the mining statistics of the year?-Of the preceding year.

18,873. I see that it includes a quantity of detail respecting the working of a mine as well as the expenses and the produce?—Yes.

18,874. As I understand it, Form A. is the basis of the royalties that are paid? Of the redevance proportionelle.

18,875. And Form B. is a statistical paper prepared after that has been settled? Yes, the mining engineers prepare that paper for their chief.

18,876. (Sir William Lewis.) This Form B. gives the actual cost of the whole colliery with a quantity of other information ?—Yes, I have also here two forms, C. and D., which are given by the administration to the provincial government filled up, one for the fixed royalty, and the other for the proportional royalty.

18,877. (Chairman.) What do the provincial governments do with these returns; what use do they make of them?-They are given to the committee of valuation and are then, if there be no opposition, transmitted to the Director of Taxes for the purpose of levying the tax.

18,878. I cannot quite see what the provincial government does-what part it takes in this?-These forms go to the governor of the province in order to be transmitted to the committee of valuation.

18,879. The provincial government is merely a post office, in point of fact?—That is all in this case. The provincial governors are officers chosen by the Government; they are not elected officers. The governor is the president of the Députation Permanente of the province. He presides also over the Valuation Committee. The government of the province is a mixed body, the members are elected, but the governor is chosen by the King.

18,880. The royalties are received by the Government of the country, not by the provincial government, I presume ?-No, by the State; by the receiver of contributions. It is dealt with by a special financial administration.

18,881. I see on Form A. (Appendix C. IX. 4), these words: "Fait et arrêté par nous, ingènieur des "mines, bourgmestre, échevins et répartiteurs de la "commune." Are those the valuation committee?No, not the valuation committee; it is the first committee which deals with it before it is transmitted to the valuation committee.

18,882. (Mr. Jamieson.) It is the commune committee ?-Yes.

18,883. (Chairman.) It begins with the commune committee?-Yes, because numerous concessions are made in several communes.

18,884. At the end it is filled up by the valuation committee the last figure obviously must be filled up by the valuation committee?—Yes; after having received it the committee of valuation examine it and, if it is correct, sign it.

18,885. (Sir William Lewis.) They indorse it ?Yes.

18,886. (Chairman.) To make it quite clear, this form goes to the provincial government for them to fill up to a certain point?-Yes. The conseil des répartiteurs, the communal committee, can refuse to accept the valuation of the administration of mines if they think it is too low, because, of course, the commune has often an interest in taking more money from the mine.

18,887. That means that the communal taxes on mines are based upon the valuation given in Form A.? --Yes.

18,888. (Professor Munro.) Referring to the table in the memorandum furnished by Professor Denis (see Appendix C. VIII.), to what purpose is the compensation fund (in the 5th column) devoted? -This fund was established by the Law of 1810 in

France, but it has never received any applicat'on in Mons. Belgium; the State takes what it has received, and H. Hubert. never gives up anything.

18,889. What was the object of the law?--The 15 Dec. 1891. Law of 1810 was a very liberal law for mining. The law desired to favour mining, and the principle fund. Compensation of it was, that the royalty was to be applied only to pay the administration, and to help miners and concessionnaires when they lost money, and also to favour the discovery of mines. Practically, now the royalty is a tax like any other tax.

18,890. Theoretically, the object of the law was to benefit mining explorers ?-Yes.

18,891. And also concessionnaires who lost money ? --Yes.

18,892. Then did I correctly understand you to say that there are also contributions levied in respect of accidents which may happen to the workmen ?— No; but in each district there is a Caisse de Prévoyance to which the mines are all affiliated. They pay to that fund a sum proportional to the amount of wages paid at the mine. This fund is administered by a committee composed of mine owners and of working men. (See Appendix C. IX. 2.)

18,893. Could you inform us, when you are replying to our other questions, what is the amount, say per ton, of these contributions ?-Yes, I will do so. 18,894. Could you also give us further details as to the hours of the miners in Belgium ?—Yes.

18,895. In the particulars you give us, could you distinguish between the underground and the overground workers?-Yes. (See Appendix C. IX. 3.) 18,896. Are the miners in Belgium paid by the Miners' wages. day or by the ton?-Some classes of them are paid by the day, and some are paid at piece-work rates. Certain mines pay their workmen always by the day, but mostly the wages are paid by piecework-that applies to hewing; the haulage is paid for sometimes by the day, sometimes by waggon.

18,897. Where they are paid by piece-work, is the piece-work measured by a certain quantity to be extracted out of the mine, or by the ton?-By the surface worked. The price of the work is established by square metre.

18,898. (Mr. Gibbs.) Not by the ton, therefore ?Not by the ton, because the thickness of the scams differs, and the hardness or softness of the coal has to be taken into consideration. A miner will sometimes hew as little as two tons in a day, and sometimes he can hew seven or eight.

18,899. According to the easiness of the work before him, I suppose, according to the thickness or the thinness of the seam, or the hardness of the coal?Yes, and according to other conditions, such as water and fire-damp.

18,900. (Professor Munro.) Is the price of coal taken into account in the rate of wages?—No.

18,901. That is, supposing coal rises in price, wages do not rise correspondingly?—There is no rule with reference to that. The wage is established rather by the state of the market.

18,902. (Chairman.) Do you mean by the state of the labour market, or the market for coal ?-By the state of the labour market, not by the state of the coal market.

18,903. (Professor Munro.) Please turn to the first table in the report of M. de Bruyn (see Appendix C. VII.), in which statistics are given as to the average wages of the workers in the different provinces. Do you know how these figures are compiled ?-They are taken from returns, forms of which I have put in. Form B. gives the statistics for one mine, for instance. On that form you will see the numbers and the average wages of men, women, boys, and girls. (See Appendix C. IX. 5). From this information the general statistics are obtained for all the mines.

18,904. Would those figures represent the average for a year?—Yes.

18,905. So that when the average is given of 3 francs 26 c. for 1889, for underground workers at Hainaut, would the 3 francs 26 c. represent the total wages paid during the year to underground

workers, divided by the total number of underground workers and the total number of days' work?—Yes, it is practically all obtained from returns like Form B. (see Appendix C. IX. 5). On the third page of that form you will see the number of days worked, and the number of the workpeople.

18,906. The returns you receive from the concessionnaires give you the total amount paid in wages in the year, the total number of days worked in the year, and the total number of workers during the year? Yes.

18,907. And the result is this average given in M. de Bruyn's table?-Yes. The administration of mines controls these figures.

18,908. In the second column for Hainaut, the table gives the average wages for underground workers, and in the third column the average for all workers?—Yes.

18,909. Each of those columns is calculated on different figures?—Yes.

18,910. (Sir William Lewis.) Of course, if the number of men on the surface and the number of men underground were equal, that figure in the third column should be the mean of the two, but that is not so?—The number of men underground is considerably more than the number of men on the surface.

18,911. (Professor Munro.) Now turn, please, to the second table (see Appendix C. VII.); the first column, I presume, gives the production in tons ?—Yes. 18,912. I take it that represents the output per underground worker?—Yes.

18,913. The second column gives the average value?—Yes, in francs.

18,914. The third column gives the average output for underground and overground workers ?Yes.

18,915. And the fourth column gives the average value of that in francs?-Yes.

18,916. Then come three columns dealing with the wages; may I ask what classes of wages are included in the word salaire; does it include office expenses? -No, the wages of the workpeople only are included. If you will refer again to Form B. (see Appendix C. IX. 5), you will see that the salaire des ouvriers and the appointement des employés et des administrateurs are two different figures.

18,917. Would salaire in this table include the carpenters' and smiths' wages?—Yes, the wages of all the workmen attached to the mine.

18,918. Of the engine-men ?-Yes. All the workmen are paid fortnightly; the other employés, the clerks and the manager, are paid by the month or by the year.

18,919. Dealing still with the second table, you will see that the last two columns give the per-centage of the wages to the value of the product?—Yes, that

is so.

18,920. It results from that that the underground workmen in 1889 were receiving 43 per cent. of the value of the product, and that all the workmen together were receiving 54 per cent. ?-Yes, that is so.

18,921. When you say that the per-centage of the product obtained by the underground worker is 43, and that the per-centage obtained by all the workers is 54, what exactly do you mean--43 per cent. and 54 per cent. of what?-It signifies that if the ton has a value of 100, the workman has received 43.

18,922. Where do you calculate the value of the ton-is it at the pit's mouth?-Nc, it is the value as sold.

18,923. Does that 43 per cent. mean 43 per cent. of the price of the coal sold at the pit's mouth, or are there deductions made first; can you show us that any in Form B. (Appendix C. IX. 5) ?—The value of the ton of coal is given on page 2 of Form B., under the head of "Prix Moyen," which is the average value of the ton sold.

18,924. Then 43 per cent. would be 43 per cent. of that value?—I have not myself prepared the second table in M. de Bruyn's report (Appendix C. VII.), but I think the figures given there are calculated on

the value of the ton sold, not at the pit's mouth, but after delivery.

18,925. (Chairman.) I presume the calculation in the table is made upon the value of the coal as ascertained and given in the Annual Statistical Report?-It is so.

18,926. On page 2 of the Annual Statistical Report the total number of tons raised in Belgium is given, then the average prices of the year, and then a calculation is made as to the valuation of the whole. I presume that that works out the figures given in the table?-That is so.

18,927. (Professor Munro.) In arriving at the average prices is any allowance made for coal consumed in the mine?-Yes, that is put down as an expense on the first page of Form B., under the head of Consommation totale de Charbon. (Appendix C. IX. 5.)

18,928. You have told us that the local taxes on mines are heavier in some provinces than in others? --Yes, in some communes.

18,929. Do wages vary in these provinces to any large extent ?—No.

18,930. Are the wages as high in the communes where the taxes are light as where they are heavy?— There is no relation between the two.

18,931. Would you say that the reason why wages vary in these four provinces is because the supply of labour is greater in one province than in another?— No, it is a question of the local custom. Wages are always higher in the district of Liège than in the district of West Hainaut, for instance, because in Liège there are more occupations open to the workpeople, whereas in West Hainaut there is nothing but mining going on. It has been established that workmen often get less wages in very dangerous mines than they do in other mines which are not so dangerous. That is in confirmation of my statement that the amount of the wages is rather a matter of local custom. The miner of Belgium does not easily change his locality, he remains in his village, he is not fond of moving from his home, and therefore he suffers rather than change.

18,932. (Mr. Barnes.) Are the workmen's dwellings Miners' healthy and good?-Not everywhere. dwellings.

18,933. Do the companies provide houses for their work people? Some companies have constructed houses for their work people, but not all.

18,934. (Professor Munro.) Do the miners receive Free coal. any allowances in the shape of free coal or of coal at a reduced rate?-Generally the workmen have to buy their coal, but they get it often at a lower price because they consume the inferior coal, coal in which there is a proportion of stone--such as the coal which is employed in the furnaces of boilers.

18,935. Are the miners organised into any trades Trades unions. unions?-A few years ago the miners began to form themselves into syndicates and trades unions, and the strikes of this year have been caused by the syndicates.

18,936. Has there been a rise in the price of coal Wages and in Belgium as well as elsewhere recently?-Yes, the production. price has been rising for some years. The price was very high in 1872, 1873, and 1874, after the war between France and Germany.

18,937. I am speaking rather of the last two years? -The price continued to rise from 1887 until 1890, but it is now again falling.

18,938. Was there any corresponding rise in wages? -No, the variations in the wages follow at a certain distance; they do not rise as quickly, nor do they fal! as quickly. If you were to prepare a diagram showing the fluctuations in the price of a ton of coal and in the wage of the workpeople, the curve of the wage would be smooth while that of the value of the coal would be sharper.

18,939. Then, I take it that it is the concessionnaires who derived the advantage from the rise in prices in 1890?-The miners also derived the advantage, because their wages did rise then. The higher the price to which the coal attains, of course the more the profit which goes to the concessionnaires. If the Commission desire it, I should be very happy to furnish

statistics showing the relative rise in the value of coals and in wages.

18,940. That would be very interesting for us to have?-I will prepare it for you.

18,941. Thank you. In the third table in M. de Bruyn's report (Appendix C. VII.), I see that the average wages per ton for 1889 are given at 5.05 francs, and the average price is 9.39 francs; that is not necessarily the average price of the coal at the pit's mouth, is it ?—No; that is the selling price, not at the pit's mouth.

18,942. Would that vary very much according to the place where the coal is sold?-It is the selling price loaded on to a waggon at the mine.

18,943. Or loaded into a boat-where there is a canal? Yes.

18,944. Then the average price of 15 34 francs given on Form B. (Appendix C. IX. 5) will represent the average price of the coal loaded on the railway at the pit's mouth ?—Yes. All the pits, with very few exceptions, are connected either with the railway or with the canal.

18,945. May I put it in this way: that the purchasers of coal from the pit buy the coal laden into waggons at the pit ?-Yes; the cost of carriage is in no case included in these prices.

18,946. Is it the case that the right of the State to give power to search for minerals and the right of the State to give a concession to work minerals have contributed to the development of the mineral industry in Belgium?-I think so. I think our law is a favourable law.

18,947. Would you say that it is an especially favourable law where there are not very rich deposits of minerals?-Our law is favourable because the State takes its royalty only when the mine is profitable, when there is a loss the State does not take its royalty, except the fixed royalty, which is very small.

18,948. Do you consider that the fact that the concessionnaire would not have to pay any tax to the Government in case he made a loss has attracted

capital to the mining industry?-Generally speaking, yes; but there is this to be considered in addition, that capital put into mines is in a precarious position. It should, however, be borne in mind that the property in a mine is perpetual, it cannot be taken away, and the charges are relatively small.

18,949. (Sir William Lewis.) You say that the State does not take its royalty when there is a loss, but the concessionnaires have to pay the local and imperial taxes, whether the mine pays or not?—Yes; but that particular royalty is small and unimportant, land in fact is rarely paid, because the surface holdings in our country are so small that each proprietor has very little money to take from the mine, and generally

speaking, he does not claim it.

18,950. (Professor Munro.) Do you consider that the mining law has been very advantageous, in view of the fact that the surface is owned by a large number of small owners ?—It is an advantage to the mine, in fact, although not in law, because the small proprietor is entitled to too small an amount of royalty to induce him to claim it, and as he does not claim it, it is not paid. The case would be different, of course, with a big royalty owner, who would have a larger amount to receive; but in the mineral provinces of Belgium, large properties are very rare.

18,951. (Mr. Forster.) Do you think the fact of not paying so small a rent as they do to the Government in case of no profits, is sufficient inducement practically to bring capital in, which otherwise would not have been put into mines ?-Practically it comes to this, that it is an advantage created by the law that the charges should only be those which depend upon the hazards of mining.

18,952. Do you think that that practically induces people to put in money who would not have put it in otherwise?-Generally speaking, I do not think so. I think capital may be absolutely employed independently of such considerations. I think what decides capitalists to open up the mines is the hope of benefit, and consequently the price in the market;

18,953. Do you know what the royalty would be in Liège, where you said the taxes are 125 per cent. of the royalty?-Three and an eighth per cent. on the net profits, the words in the law are "net produce," royalty. but those words signify net benefit.

66

18,954. (Chairman.) When you use the torm 'net profits," I presume that you mean the net profits as ascertained by the process explained in the Memorandum ?—Yes.

18,955. Namely, after deducting working expenses, but not interest on capital or depreciation ?—Yes.

18,956. This is not a new figure, it is the ordinary calculation of the net produce; but you may call it profit or produce if you like ?—Yes.

18,957. (Mr. Forster.) The taxes you said were 125 per cent. more than that?—Yes, in proportion to the tax raised by the State.

18,958. (Chairman.) Is this the way to put it: If you suppose that the royalty payable to the State is 1d. per ton, they pay 14d. in taxes?--Yes. The net profit-the net benefit-is established according to special rules; it is not the real profit, it is a particular profit established by the mining administration. To get at it, we take the whole value of the coal extracted during one year; we deduct all the expenses of all kinds and we make no redemption. The contribution is fixed for each year. If a mine gains one year and loses the next year, the State does not account for that, the mine pays as it gains and receives nothing to counterbalance that when it loses.

18,959. Then the basis on which the tax is levied, the assumed profit, is greater than the real profit ?— In some mines it is greater, but in other mines, it is less. In the good mines it is less; in the bad mines it is greater.

18,960. How can that be if you allow no redemption? Because certain mines which are in an excellent financial position have a reserve, and the and not to the Government. If, for example, the interest of this reserve is given to the shareholders worker of a mine has to buy a piece of land, it is accounted for to the Government as an expense, although it is not a real expense, because the value of the surface still remains. It is the same for a building and for an engine.

18,961. (Mr. Forster.) Have you any idea what the average profit per ton might be, taken out roughly, on which the tax is levied ?-I will furnish it. I have with me some sheets which I give to my pupils in the school of mines, but they are in French. The mode of establishing the net benefit is explained in for the Commission. (See Appendix C. IX. 9 and 10.) those sheets which I will have translated into English

18,962. (Mr. Barnes.) Does the owner publish a balance sheet?-No; but the Government engineers have the right of examining the books of the colliery. If the colliery owners will not show their books, the Government engineer has the right of taxing them on the market price of the coal of the locality, and if the colliery owners refuse to accept that price, then they must show their books.

never

Taxation of

18,963. (Mr. Forster.) Do you know of any Sale and lease instances of concessions being sold?-Yes; conces- of concessions. sions have been sold, but good concessions are not sold. 18,964. Are good concessions sold?Scarcely ever, the owners preserve them. 18,965. Have you known any instances of concessions being let ?-That may be done, but it is not the practice. In reality there are only four which have been let.

18,966. Of course they are let at an increased price -they pay something beyond the ordinary tax which the concessionnaire pays ?-That is so, because the royalty received by the first concessionnaire is proportional to the amount of tons extracted.

18,967. Independent of the profits?-Yes; but the Government only gets it in case of profits.

18,968. Have several of these concessions been formed into public companies ?-It more frequently

occurs that a company buys a mine which is neighbouring to its own, and then amalgamates it; but it into one. has occurred that two companies have been fused

18,969. Do those companies, like ours, publish the value of their shares-are their shares on the market? Yes, almost all of them are joint stock companies. 18,970. And their shares are quoted on the market? --Yes.

18,971. Have they gone up or down?-They have risen considerably within the last two years. In the case of some mines they have risen to as much as triple their former value, because four years ago they

had fallen

very

low in the market.

18,972. (Mr. Barnes.) Does the Government still hold the first concessionnaire liable after the concession has been transferred to a second or third concessionnaire ?-Such a case would occur very seldom, but when a mine is sold it is sold with all its liabilities.

18,973. Do the Government allow the concessionnaires to assign the concession ?-Yes; they assign it completely. The property in the concession is the same as that in a piece of ground on the surface.

18,974. (Chairman.) Is it not the case, that when there are amalgamations, a fresh concession is taken out, so that the barriers may be removed between the concessions?-The mines in Belgium must reserve a barrier of 20 metres in width from the surface to the centre of the earth. That rule has been established to protect one mine against the water coming into it from an adjoining mine. The Government scarcely ever gives authority to remove those barriers when the mines are not amalgamated. This specially applies to cases where one mine would be likely to be jeopardised by a neighbouring one. But when the mines are united under the same hand the Government nearly always gives permission to work those barriers. The Administration of Mines is always consulted in these cases and the Council of Mines also. This is, of course, a very important question for all mines. Sometimes the Government has given the authority to take away the barrier between two mines

which were not united under one hand when the two mines have asked its consent.

18,975. When three or four mines are amalgamated, it becomes practically a new concession, does it not? -Yes, it becomes a new concession; but each original concession retains its ancient charges, and the authority to amalgamate the concessions does not destroy the rights of the surface owners. If you amalgamate

a mine which was conceded before 1837 with one conceded after that date, the rights of the owners of the surface generally differ, and each surface owner would retain the rights given him under each separate concession, but in relation to the State the concessions are united.

18,976. (Mr. Forster.) Is the area of each concession large are the barriers far apart?-Generally speaking, the area is not great. I have prepared for the Commission an account of the number of concessions and of their extent, and I will send it in.*

18,977. If the area is not large, the 20 mètres barrier would form what we would consider a large proportion of the whole, compared with our areas?-Yes, it is of importance, because we have frequently in our collieries beds which are perpendicular, and in that case the beds might be included in the barrier; that is not the general case, but it may happen.

18,978. You mean a bed like that (illustrating) ?— Yes. The limits of the concessions cannot be accurately established, on account of the direction of the seams.

18,979. (Mr. Redington.) In granting a right of search, is any preference given to the surface owner? -A payment must be made to the owner of the surface. Generally the searcher agrees with the surface owner, but if the surface owner refuses to allow the search, the Government can allow it.

Coal: 256 concessions, eutending over 142,892 hectares; 133 only are worked. Metalliferous miues (iron, lead, zine): 103 concessions, extending over 59,906 hectares; 7 only are worked.

18,980. My question was rather whether the surface owner could prevent an outsider from searching ?— He may do it.

18,981. Can he reserve it for himself?-He can. He may say "I am going to do it myself." He has the absolute right to search, but not the right to work. The right to work he must get by concession.

18,982. When the concession is given, does it Property include all the seams of coal down to the centre of concession. the earth? Yes, now.

18,983. Then it is not a concession for only one seam?-No, in ancient times, in the province of Hainaut, the concessions were given by seams, and there are, in that province, concessions of superimposed seams, and that is very bad.

18,984. (Mr. Barnes.) When they have given a concession for one seam, would they give other concessions which would interfere with the working of that seam?-There are in some cases four or five super-imposed concessions.

18,985. (Mr. Redington.) In modern concessions are all kinds of minerals included?--No, only one mineral. If a concessionnaire has obtained a concession of coal, and he finds lead or zinc, he must apply for a new concession to work that mineral.

18,986. Is there a certain defined recognised area Area of for each concession, or does it vary in each case?- concession. The surface of the concession is very variable; the limits are never straight lines, but irregular lines.

18,987. Then one concession may be of much larger superficial area than another?—Yes, of ten

times the size.

18,988. When a payment is made to the surface Surface owners, how is it divided among the various surface owners. owners who have the land over the mine; is it in proportion to the areas of their properties ?-Yes, the total benefit of the mine is divided by the total surface area, and each proprietor has the right of receiving a royalty, proportional to his surface, whether the surface is worked or not worked.

18,989. There is a reference on page 2 of the The droit de Summary to certain droits de terrage which "still terrage. remain upon collieries in the province of Liège "; do they still exist ?-Yes; some collieries pay also the droit de terrage. It has been recently decided by the courts that these claims must be paid in the province of Liège. There are cases where mine owners have constructed galleries to carry away the water, and it has been decided that the owners of other mines which benefit from the existence of these galleries, must pay to the owners, who have constructed them, a certain royalty. The Court of Appeal of Brussels has this year decided, in a process which has lasted 40 years, that these ancient rights were still in existence.

say

18,990. Mr. Broke, in his report upon mining rents and royalties, puts those charges at 14d. per cent. of the gross produce; is he right in that?-We the 80th part; the 80th basket is the droit de terrage. 18,991. In M. de Bruyn's Report, Article 2 of the Cahier des Charges (see Appendix C. VII.) says, the concessionnaire shall conduct his works so as to provide for the interests of the consumer; that is a very vague term?-This Article is considered as of no value, and in modern concessions it is not reproduced.

18,992. I think your attention has been called to the table on page 1 of M. Denis's Memorandum (see Appendix C. VIII.)?—It has, but I have not seen it before to-day.

18,993. (Chairman.) It has been sent by M. Denis, of Brussels, to Mr. Munro; would you kindly examine it, and tell us at your convenience when you get back to Belgium, whether it is accurate ?-Yes, I will verify it.

18,994. You perceive that it ends with 1888; if you can add to it the corresponding figures for 1889 and 1890, we should be very much obliged ?—I shall be happy to do so. I think this table contains an error; I am not sure that the "compensation fund" is actually received now.

18,995. (Mr. Redington.) Have you supplied us Cost of with a return of the total cost of the mining administration.

Strikes and

administration in Belgium ?-Yes; it is about 425,000 francs a year.

18,996. As against a total of the taxes received from the mines of how much ?-I have here a table which has been prepared for a financial newspaper, in which the amount has been calculated from the year 1835. The total amount of royalties was in round figures 21 millions, and the expenses for administration 16 millions; the profit to the State being 5 millions of francs-that is the difference between the royalty and the expenses. I will send this table also to the Commission.

18,997. (Mr. Robertson.) Did I correctly underminers' wages. stand you to say, in answer to a question by Professor Munro, that strikes have only taken place in Belgium since the syndicates of miners were formed?-No; strikes are very ancient things in Belgium.

Ancient royalties.

Sale of concessions.

18,998. Strikes took place before the formation of the Miners' Unions ?—Yes.

18,999. And have taken place since ?-Yes. The strike became almost general in Belgium last year on account of the establishment of syndicates. The syndicates decided to struggle for the general suffrage-the popular party. The miners have been brought to think it was necessary to have a universal strike, in order to obtain universal suffrage, and commenced their festival day on the 1st of May, the chiefs of the party of workmen, as they call themselves, at first considered this strike unseasonable, but they were not listened to, and finally they followed the miners.

19,000. Strikes have taken place during the past four years?—Yes, several.

Mons. H. Hubert.

19,001. And during the past four years there has been a great improvement, I understand you to say, in the condition of the Belgian coal trade?—Yes. 19,002. The price or value of shares has trebled during the past four years?—Not in every colliery, Strikes and Ininers' wages

but in some collieries.

19,003. There has been a very considerable increase in the value ?—Yes.

19,004. Which means that there has been an inreaase in the profits?—Yes.

19,005. And in the name of this increase of profits the miners have asked for increase of wages?—They have already received an augmentation.

19,006. Has that augmentation been given to them since their strike, or was it given before the strike?— Generally, the collieries were obliged to give ar augmentation, because in the state of the labour market, it became difficult for them to get labour. In some cases the owners did not grant a sufficient augmentation, and in those cases the miners struck, but generally the strikes are against a diminution of wages.

19,007. A reduction in wages?-Yes, in bad times.

15 Dec. 1891.

19,008. (Mr. Redington.) If two persons apply for Right of the right to search, on what principle is the right search. given to one? Is it left to the arbitrary decision of anybody?—I do not think the case has occurred. There is now literally nothing left to look for.

19,009. (Mr. Gibbs.) In times past was it so?-It was exceedingly rare and uncommon for such things to occur. The Government would have to decide in that case, and I think they may give the right to search to several persons.

19,010. (Chairman.) You are the British Consul at Düsseldorf, I believe?—Yes.

19,011. And as such you have had opportunities of becoming acquainted with the German Mining Law?-Yes.

19,012. I believe you have received from the Secretary to this Commission a summary of the Mining Law in Germany ?-I have. (Sec Final Report, Appendix VIII.)

19,013. And also certain other papers connected with the subject ?--Yes.

19,014. And also a list of the questions which summarises those points upon which the Commission would like to have further information ?—Yes.

19,015. In the first place, can you tell us what quantity of coal is raised, subject to a payment of onetenth to the old proprietors of Crown rights?-No; I have not been able to ascertain the quantity, but I believe that, if any, it is a very small quantity.

19,016. Then it is not a matter worth further investigation ?-It is hardly worthy of consideration.

19,017. Are there any other ancient royalties preserved by the Prussian Law of 1865?-In some States there are; in some of the States of Germany there are exceptions to the rule of the Law of 1865.

19,018. Do any of these ancient royalties really affect the great coal produce of Germany?-No.

19,019. When a person applies for a concession, is any investigation made of his financial means before the concession is granted in Germany ?—No.

19,020. Has any inconvenience been found in Germany in consequence of the concessionnaire not working the mine himself?—No; I have not heard of any inconvenience arising from that, from the simple fact that if the concession is at all worth working, there are always capitalists to be found to buy it up and to work it.

19,025. Have many concessions been granted which Concessions are not now being worked ?—I have not been able to unworked. obtain any reliable information upon that subject except that in the Oberbergamt district of Halle, where there is a great deal of lignite coal, there are a number of concessions that are not being worked because they are not sufficiently valuable to pay for the surface damages. Those charges in the lignite district are very heavy because the coal comes up to the day, and the surface is destroyed with it. But in the mineral coal districts of Westphalia and the Rhenish provinces the number of concessions not now being worked is very few, and they are only in a few exceptional cases where the chalk marl is so heavily watered, and the coal lies at such great depth that there has been a want of enterprise during the great depression of trade of the past 10 years to undertake such work. But where there is good coal, and coal which is easily got at, it is all being worked.

19,026. The Commission would like to have some Wayleaves further information as to the power of obtaining way- Expropriation leaves; in the first place, inside the limits of the of land. concession, what are the powers a concessionnaire can exercise over the surface?-The powers are under the rights of expropriation. When the landowner objects to give a wayleave, or to give the land necessary for the construction of a road, or railway, or canal, then the matter is referred to a joint commission of the local government of the province and of the mining. council. They appoint experts, and the landowner has a right to appoint an expert, and if they cannot agree, and the Government expert decides that the