knights service, and regulated by the act | commissioners to be appointed by the bill, of Charles 2nd. Since the reign of Ed- ought to have the power of inquiring into ward 3d, no king had been held account- the Prince's right to the revenues of the able for these revenues during the mino- duchy of Cornwall, during his minority. If rity of the heir apparent. In law a guar- his right should appear, and if the money dian in soccage, as a father to a son in should be to be refunded by the public, private life, was held accountable; but a the difference would be, that of the prince's guardian in chivalry was by no means ac- being solvent or insolvent. In voting countable, nor ever had been held so. If 125,000l. a year for the Prince's estabthe revenue, during the period of the lishment, were not gentlemen conscious Prince's minority, was the property of the that they were voting 25,000l. a year for Prince, it was the property of his creditors. the liquidation of debts while they profes If the money had been applied to the ge- sed to be doing no such thing? To vote neral purposes of the civil list, it had been more than 100,000l. a year, was laying applied to the public service, and the down the prodigal principle, that every public, not the king, must refund. He future Prince of Wales was to have an saw no benefit that would arise from charg- equal income with that now voted. The ing the contigent burthen upon the civil minister who proposed it was not consistlist in the first instance; but if necessary ent with himself; for he had formerly the law would decide; the king was thought 60,000l. not only sufficient but amenable to the law, and though he might ample. Would any man contend that the not be sued by as pressing means as his Prince's marriage called for an addition to subjects, yet might debts due by him be his income of more than double? That the as effectually recovered as from any indi- Princess of Wales, for whom, in case of vidual; and the trial of a single case would the death of the Prince, 50,000l. was determine the whole. Let the Prince of thought sufficient to maintain an entire esWales therefore, if he pleased try; but tablishment, would occasion an increase his Royal Highness would certainly then of expense to an existing establishment of bear in mind what he had already received 65,000l. a year? He thought the Prince's from his royal father from his infancy. debts ought to be provided for in the first instance; but he should oppose taking any thing from the sinking fund, immediately or contingently, for that purpose, till he had taken the sense of the House upon a plan he meant to suggest. The minister would have consulted both the king's honour and his own, if when the marriage was proposed, he had said that he would not bring down a message calling upon the House for money, unless his majesty would bear a part of the burthen. It was the duty of ministers to have done this in the first instance, but as they had not done so, it became the duty of parliament. If the worst of Jacobins had devised a plan for disgracing the Prince of Wales, and dishonouring the crown, it would have been such a plan as ministers had brought forward. Were the expenses incurred by the Prince so very unpardonable? His majesty possessed many great and good qualities; but on the subject of expense, or of keeping promises with the public would the Prince suffer by comparison with his majesty. When an establishment for the Prince of Wales was first proposed, the duke of Portland and his colleagues in office, were of opinion that it ought to be 100,0007. His majesty thought otherwise, and it was The settled at 50,000l. He had soon after Mr. Sheridan said, that as he found it impossible for him to vote a shilling, nay the weight of a hair, of the public money, for the payment of the Prince's debts, he must make his stand against that proposal; at the same time, he could not agree with the plans suggested by his learned friend, for the sale of Cornwall, or the forest lands. He had no objection to the sale of the duchy of Cornwall, but he could not agree to have all the money arising from such sale applied to pay the Prince's debts. The duke of York had a contingent property, and all subsequent princes would be injured: but if the duchy was sold, and an equivalent to the Prince's life estate only applied, he thought the sale would be attended with many advantages. The greatest part of the revenues were swallowed up in the collection; it answered the purposes of jobbing and court influence. The duchy though nominally of Cornwall, was ridiculously split and dispersed; we had Cornwall in Coventry, in Lambeth, and in Westminster; and, as a property, it could not possibly be less beneficial or productive in any other shape or figure. The plan which he should propose would be of a different nature. He would not wish to press on the civil list. wards by his majesty; and the Prince told him, that the promise was not to be insisted upon. In the king's message, however, the promise was inserted; by whose advice he knew not. He heard it read with surprise, and being asked next day by the Prince to contradict it in his place, he inquired whether the Prince had seen the Message before it was brought down. Being told that it had been read to him, but that he did not un opportunities of seeing the Prince's embarrassments from the narrowness of his income, and the feelings to which those embarrassments gave rise. Although holding no official situation about his Royal Highness, the Prince honoured him with his confidence, and often asked his advice, chiefly from the knowledge of his fixed determination to accept of no obligation of any kind whatever. It was not his custom to answer calumnies, many of which he had suffered to pass unno-derstand it as containing a promise, he ticed; but he now declared, in the face of the House and of the country, that he never received from the Prince of Wales so much as the present of a horse or a picture. Lately, he had seen his Royal Highness but seldom, from circumstances, which, although it had always been his opinion that a prince of Wales ought to adopt no party in politics, it was unnecessary to explain; but on that very account he was the more desirous of doing justice to the Prince, especially, when he saw a disposition to place every part of his conduct in the most odious point of view. Let gentlemen recollect, what was paid for the Prince in 1787. It was 160,000l., of this 60,000l. was for Carlton House, and 80,000l. more was voted to complete the building. A suspicion arose, that this money was not applied to the purpose for which it was voted; but upon investigation by a committee, it was found to be faithfully applied. Take all the money he had got from the date of his first establishment to the present day, and it would be found not to exceed 75,000l. a year. In 1787, a pledge was given to the House, that no more debts should be contracted. By that pledge, the Prince was bound as much as if he had given it knowingly and voluntarily. To attempt any explanation of it now would be unworthy of his honour, as if he had suffered it to be wrung from him, with a view of afterwards pleading that it was against his better judgment, in order to get rid of it. He then advised the Prince not to make any such promise, because it was not to be expected that he could himself enforce the detail of a system of economy; and although he had men of honour and abilities about him, he was totally unprovided with men of business, adequate to such a task. The Prince said he could not give such a pledge, and agree to take back his establishment. He (Mr. S.) drew up a plan of retrenchment, which was approved of by the Prince, and after declined contradicting it, and told the For the sinking fund he would not take away any gentleman's sinecure place, but appoint a committee as trustees, in whom might be placed the revenues of useless offices, which, after the death of the present holders, and as they fell, should be gradually applied to extinguish the principal. When they should be all paid off, it would be of service to our posterity, who would look back with exultation and gratitude for our arrangement, and with wonder that such places ever existed. For his part, he was a staunch friend to the British constitution, but was no friend to its abuses. There was one class who loved the constitution, but did not love its abuses; a second class loved it with all its abuses; and there was a third class -a large interested party, amongst which he placed his majesty's ministers, who loved it for nothing else but its abuses. But let that House, the best part of the constitution, consider its own honour and character; let all parties, as well those who were gorged with sinecure offices, as those who had none, have a contest who shall be most eager to destroy them. Let us, by such a measure as he now called for, build the ease and dignity of the Prince on the ruins of idleness and corruption, and not upon the toil of the industrious poor, who may think their loaf decreased by the payment of his incumbrances. He concluded by moving an amendment, by inserting, after the words "consolidated fund," these words, "provided it shall appear to this House, upon due investigation of the subject, that the means of paying the said annuity, or part thereof, or of his Royal Highnes's debts, cannot be derived either from his majesty's civil list, or from the suppression of sinecure offices and useless places now paid by the public." unsolicited advice from another quarter. He was told by lord Loughboroguh, both in words and in writing, that the plan savoured too much of the advice given to M. Egalité, and he could guess from what quarter it came. These plans were soon after given up. By the plan now proposed, the Prince had not the grace of suggesting either the retrenchments, or the checks upon his future conduct. His past misconduct was exhibited in the harshest point of view; he was set in a gilded pillory; sent to do public penance in an embroidered sheet. He was left in possession of too much income to exempt him from envy, and too little to exempt him from scorn. To pay the debts, something ought to be given by the king. There were debts due to honest tradesmen, to which no exception could be taken. There were on the establishment gentlemen of honour, whose salaries were fourteen quarters in arrear; and to some of them it must be a great inconvenience not to be paid. The debts ought therefore to be divided into two parts, and those of the descriptions above-mentioned discharged immediately. Carlton House being made the property of the public for ever, the public ought to pay the expense of rebuilding it. This would reduce the debts to 500,000/. To pay the interest of this at 5 per cent. would require 25,000l. For this he did not mean to apply to the civil list, which might now be almost considered as identified with the consolidated fund. In the last reign, the sum appropriated to the privy purse was 36,000l. a year. In the beginning of the present, it was 48,000l. In 1777, when the debts of the civil list were paid and 100,000l. a year added to it, the privy purse was made 60,000l., and the queen received 50,000l. for her establishment, all their majesties houses and villas were now finished, and they had no expenses to incur in the way of paraphernalia. The first and most natural feeling of a parent would be, to make some sacrifice to retrieve the imprudence of a son. He should therefore expect 10,000l. a year from his majesty's privy purse, and 5,000l. a year from the queen's establishment; for the remaining 10,000l. a year, he would look to those places and sinecures, which neither added dignity to the crown, nor were calculated to afford it support. He would just instance the place of teller of the exchequer, which produced between 18 and 20,000l. a year. ร Mr. Secretary Dundas said, the hon. gentleman had informed the House, that in 1787, when the debts of his Royal Highness were paid off, the promise which had been given to the House did not, in point of fact, come from the Prince, but had been given by ministers against his consent. To this positive assertion he had but one short answer to make-the message was read over to his Royal Highness before it was delivered in parliament, and no objection was stated to it. He was sure it would not be said that his Royal Highness was unacquainted with the force of the English language, and therefore it was to him a matter of great surprise that reject the proposal, he would appeal only to their taste; it was a kind of proposi tion which could not properly be argued. Her majesty had 50,000l. a year allowed her for her own expenses and for those of the princesses, and yet 5,000l. was to be picked out of her majesty's private purse for a purpose, and in what manner the hon. gentleman could best suggest. As to the other part of the hon. gentleman's plan, when he talked of converting all useless offices to the purpose of defray his Royal Highness should be ignorant of its contents. The object which ministers had in contemplation was, to effect the discharge of the Prince's debts with as little burden and risk as possible to the public. The plan proposed, in his opinion, attained this end. According to the mode suggested by the chancellor of the exchequer, the public were only responsible contingently upon the Prince's demise; of course, some degree of risk was run by the public; but he wished the House to compare the risk on the one hand withing the Prince's debts, and called that the advantage on the other. From the not taking it out of the pockets of the circumstance of the public guaranteeing public, he professed he could not underthe payment of the debts in case of his stand how it was so. If these were places Royal Highness's death, the creditors had of no use, abolish them; but what then? been induced to accede to this plan of Did not the money so saved revert to the payment: this was a considerable point public purse? and was it not as much gained, and the risk was certainly small. taking money from the pockets of the But instead of having the public security, public otherwise to apply it, as any other the hon. gentleman wished to substitute that mode could be? As to the other parts of of the civil list. Now the civil list was never the hon. gentleman's speech, he thought considered as good security as the public. them of such a nature as best to be passed But if at present the public did not approve over in silence; he should not therefore of the civil list as a security, how much less attempt to reply to them. so must they consider it, if the civil list was voted annually? This was a proposition that went so far beyond even the wildest plan of reform, that he could not suppose the hon. gentleman was serious. The civil list was granted to the crown, in lieu of the landed property it formerly possessed; and this change was considered as a favourable one to the constitution. But the House would recollect, that the sum voted for the civil list was distributed under various heads of service, and.under the control of different officers; and he would venture to assert, that the annual amount of the civil list was not more than adequate to the purposes to which it was applied. But it had been asserted that his majesty ought to contribute something to the payment of the Prince's debts. He thought the hon. gentleman had not considered this point with his usual accuracy, or he would never have pressed this argument, for it was clear that his majesty was less called upon to provide for his eldest son than any other part of his family, because the Prince was considered, in some degree, as the property of the public. Why should his majesty be called upon to discharge any of those incumbrances which he could not prevent being contracted? With respect to taking a part of the queen's private purse to pay the Prince's debt, he would not ap-happened in a former reign had shown peal to the judgment of the House to the impolicy of such steps; and they Mr. Bankes said, he wished to give a direct negative to the original motion, but could not agree in the amendment. He would vote, as he had formerly done, against so large an income being given to the Prince. He thought the creditors of the present day were very different from the creditors of 1787; then they were ignorant of the Prince's situation, but after the Message delivered to parliament, those who gave him credit ought to take the risk. Mr. Fox said, he could not agree to the amendment moved by his hon. friend, He thought with the right hon. secretary, that it was better to give the civil list to the king for life, than annually. But he could not agree with him, that the king should not come forward upon this occasion, because the debts were contracted without his knowledge, and out of the power of his control. For if this reason applied to the king, it surely more forcibly applied to the public. The Prince ought not to be accused of breach of promise. He did not believe that he had got into this dilemma intentionally; but ministers were much to blame for the bad advice they had given both to his majesty and to the Prince. It must always be an unpleasant thing to lay new burthens on the people for the royal family. YEAS NOES must be particularly obnoxious at present. ! If the king had had honest ministers about him, they would have advised him to have come forward. He thought the new advisers of the Prince had not increased his popularity; and he believed, that his own wish and inclination three years ago was, to have retrenched his expenses, in order to get into some probable train of paying his debts: but it was suspected; and he, for one, was now certain of it, that very different advice had been given to him; and that the example of M. Egalité was held out as a warning, that, to take any steps such as were proposed, would be dangerous to the cause of monarchy. He thought his hon. friend had done well in proposing that the civil list should contribute towards the payment of the debts. Mr. Anstruther said, that giving the Prince a large income without paying his debts, was putting him in a worse situation than he now was; because with a larger income, there might be greater inducement to give credit, and more to be made by execution in failure of payments. Mr. Grey thought the proposition for the payment of the debts should meet with a direct negative. It was the only method to prevent future applications of a similar nature. If he were to admit the propriety of discharging the debts, he should argue, that it would much better be fixed on the civil list. After some further conversation, Mr. Sheridan's amendment was withdrawn. The main question being then put, the House divided: June 8. The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Prince of Wales's debts, Mr. Pitt moved, "That provision be made for the appropriation of an annual sum of 65,000l. out of the consolidated fund, towards the liquidation of such part of the debts now owing by the Prince of Wales, as may remain unpaid, in the event of the decease of his Royal Highness." The resolution being agreed to, Mr. Pitt next moved, "That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole House, to whom the bill for enabling his majesty to settle an annuity on his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, during the life of his majesty, and of the life of his said Royal Highness; for making provision for the payment of any debts that may be due from his Royal Highness, out of his revenues: for preventing the contracting of the like debts in future; and for regulating the mode of expenditure of the said revenues, is committed, That they have power to make provision in the said bill pursuant to the said resolution." General Smith said, that he was convinced the Prince of Wales was as fairly entitled to the profits of the duchy of Cornwall, as any other minor would be to the income of his estate in similar circumstances. He was of opinion, that a clause ought to be inserted in the bill, to enable the commissioners to inquire also into the claims of his Royal Highness, and that the sums found owing to him, should be 148 placed opposite to his debts. He believed, that the revenues of Cornwall, during the minority of the Prince would nearly cover the whole of the Prince's debts, or at least be found to come within 100,000l. of their amount. 93 Mr. Sheridan then moved, "That a proposition having been made to this House, in consequence of a Message from his Majesty, for a further increase of income to his royal highness the Prince of Wales, this House think it their duty to consider how far that object may be obtained, without any additional burthen to the public, by the reduction of useless. places and unnecessary expenses." Mr. Pitt thereupon moved, "That the House do now adjourn." Upon which the House divided: [VOL. XXXII.] |