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the sum they had already voted, and motion. He declared himself entirely which, whether so applied or not, would against the payment of the debts in any be equally a burthen on the people, to the way, as a question that ought not to be discharge of his debts, or whether that entertained by the House.

He was whole income should be left without any against pledging the House or the public obligation upon it, and finally, perhaps, in any way, that might eventually or conbe spent without having contributed ma- tingently lead to fixing a burther upon terially to that very service, on account them to pay those debts, with which he of which, in the minds of many gentle | thought they had nothing to do. men, the higher establishment had been Mr. For contended, that the House, by consented to. This being strictly the agreeing to the instruction moved, were state of the question he did not see how not pledged for one farthing of the debts. he could conscientiously refuse his assent He lamented the necessity for setting to the proposition as it stood.

apart any precise quantum of the Prince's Sir John Call argued for an immediate income for the payment of his debts; bedisharge of the debt. The best and least

cause that ought to be determined by burthensome way of providing for it, he himself; but the difficulty he felt on that conceived to be the sale of the duchy of point was obviated by the message which Cornwall.

the House had just received. Mr. Wilberforce thought that some in- Mr. Sheridan said, that the only quesquiry ought to be made, as to the manner tion that ought to be before them, was in which the debts had been contracted, simply whether the debts were to be paid because it might be productive of some or no ? But by the mode in which it had advantage.

been brought forward, this direct quesSir W. Dolben would vote for the in- tion might be evaded. The public cerstruction, because formerly the House tainly never would believe that the minis. had only the assurance of the minister ter proposed an income of 125,0001. for upon the subject, but the message of that the Prince, without any reference to the day expressed, that his Royal Highness debts; and they ought not to be trifled himself was desirous to avoid future em- and quibbled with, by being told at the barrassment, and upon this assurance he same time that they were not pledged to had great reliance. He saw no reason pay them; they ought not to be deluded, the country had to look to his majesty for humbugged, and deceived in that way, but the payment of any part of the debts. fairly and at once to know whether they

Mr. Bankes said, he conceived the vot- were to pay the debts or not. It was not ing of any sum for the establishment of his intention that night to vote either way. the Prince, as totally distinct from voting He was against giving any instruction money to pay his debts, which he thought to the committee, relative to the payment the House ought not to be called upon todo, of the debts ; yet he would give it as his after the Message of 1787. The payment positive opinion, that they ought to be of debts must always be unpleasant to paid immediately, for the dignity of the

. . sures that went only to check such things, He ought not to be seen rolling about the and thought that the only way to prevent streets in his state-coach as an insolvent them in future was, by not paying the prodigal; but, while he ought to be redebts now incurred.

lieved from his embarrassments, the public Mr. Sumner opposed that part of the should not be burthened with the pressure motion which appropriated any part of of a hair. In coming to that House to the income to the Prince for the payment pay his debts, the Prince had been ill adof his debts. The two questions were not vised. The debts might and ought to be fairly before the House, and ought not to paid. If it was meant to keep monarchy be blended. He therefore moved an respectable in the eyes of this country, a amendment, by leaving out the words different conduct should have been pur« and also, for appropriating a proportion sued. The sum of 2 or 300,0001., was triof the Prince's annual income, towards fing, when compared to the unbecoming the gradual discharge of the incumbrances situation of an heir apparent to the crown, to which bis Royal Highness is now sub- withoutindependence, and, what was worse, ject."

without character. Mr. Grey seconded the amendment, be- The question being put, “ That the cause he thought it tended to simplify the words proposed to be left out, stand part

of the question;" the House divided:



Yeas { Nors {MI

{ Mr. Sylvester bouglas :}



the Prince and his creditors, that it might Mr. Anstruther :

be known what terms would be accepled, Mr. Powys

266 if a certain security was given. The right

hon. gentleman had intimated his intention Mr. Grey

52 to fill up the blank in the committee with Mr. Sumner

the whole additional sum of 65,0001., and So it was resolved in the affirmative. the revenue of the duchy of Cornwall. Then the main question being put, the He certainly did not think the suin of House divided :

78,0001., a year too large for the purpose Tellers.

of liquidating the debt. But how was the

right hon. gentleman to get at the revenue YEAS


of the duchy of Cornwall, as he under.

stood that the present income of his Royal Noes Mr. Whitbread

46 Highness was conveyed in trust for the

benefit of his creditors? It was very unSo it was resolved in the affirmative. fortunate that the House should be called

to impose a contingent burthen upon the June 5. Mr. Pitt moved, “That this public, without either the certainty of reHouse will, on Monday next, resolve it. lieving the Prince of Wales, or of satisfyself into a committee of the whole House, ing his just creditors. He was now called to consider of providing for the appropri- upon to perform the last disagreeable task ation of an annual sum out of the consoli- which had fallen to his share in the predated fund, for the liquidation of such of sent discussions. He had not flattered the debts, now owing by his royal high- the people, for he had voted for the larger ness the Prince of Wales, as may remain sum; he had not flattered the Prince, for unpaid, in the event of the decease of his he had pretty plainly explained his sense Royal Highness."

of the manner in which that sum ought to Sir William Young said, that because he be appropriated; nor would he, in what was attached to the royal family lie did he had now to say, flatter that other parnot wish the debts should be taken notice ty, whose immediate favour might be of at all. The mode of procedure adopted deemed still more important. by the right hon. gentleman tended to cerely lamented that parliament had redegrade the Prince of Wales : it put him, ceived no intimation from his majesty, as it were, in leading-strings, and held him that in any possible contingency he would out as unworthy of confidence.

take upon himself the charge of the debts. Mr. For said, that he conceived no such They might then have had the consolation construction could apply to any measures to say that it was a transaction which had taken to regulate the expenditure of his been equally unfortunate for all parties ; Royal Highness. When the House voto that the public had suffered from the imed for Mr. Burke's bill, they had acted in position of an additional burthen; that the same spirit. He then conceived that the Prince had suffered from a diminution the elevated situation of his inajesty gave of splendor ; and that his majesty had a right to that House to lay him under the suffered in common with his family and restrictions which they then imposed; be- his people. If the bill went forward, he cause, proud as his situation was, he own- certainly should vote for the appropriaed no greater station than that of servant tion of the 78,0001., which would extinof the people. Before, in the present in- guish the debt in about nine years. The stance, he consented to burthen the people, risk of the public in that case was certainly he wished to know, whether what he not great; but why, he asked, should the should grant would be effectual for the public be subjected in this instance to any purpose for which it was demanded. As contingent risk? He proposed to move, far as he understood, there was no com- that in case of the demise of the Prince pulsion upon the creditors to accept of of Wales, the portion of his debts, which the terms now offered. He did not wish should then remain unpaid, should be deto impose an additional burthen upon the frayed out of the civil list. It might be public without some reasonable certainty said, would not so large a defalcation obihat it would really be effectual. The lige parliament to grant an additional supwbole of the business had been conducted / ply to the civil list? To this he would unfortunately There ought first to have only answer, that it would then remain for taken place some arrangement between parliament to consider whether the state

He was,

the civil list was such as called upon them to inquire into this matter, and sue for the for an additional sum. If 'the civil list recovery of the money if


He should be lightened of some of the burthens wished to see royal resources applied to with which it was at present charged, it the relief of royal embarrassments. might then be adequate to undertake the The Attorney General expressed himself debts; if not, it would be for parliament truly sensible how necessary it was for to consider, what supply it would be pro- that House to consider the essential interper to grant. Some gentlemen had la ests of the Prince of Wales : but it would mented that the Prince's debts should be not be to study his fundamental and permentioned at all in a parliamentary way, manent interests, if they did not at the after the promise contained in the message same time also consult those of the public. of 1787. As to that promise, it might have Gentlemen seemed to forget that the law been made without consideration ; but the of the land would attach upon the income House in the address recited that promise voted to the Prince, for the benefit of his the Prince knew that, and by accepting creditors, unless the House interposed. the terms, deliberately bound himself. He All that they were now called upon to do, adverted to the argument that had been was, to provide for a judicious application urged, that parliament were bound to pro- of that money to the liquidation of the vide for the debts as having approved of Prince's debts, which otherwise he might the marriage of bis Royal Highness. How be compelled to apply in a more unpleamuch more, then, his majesty, who was sant and less effectual manner. an immediate party in the contract? Was he owned, a little astonished to hear the he to be supposed the only one who was learned gentleman talk of the temporary ignorant of the embarrassments under alienation of the duchy of Cornwall, withwhich his son laboured ? Gentlemen out specifying the limitation of the time. should recollect that the marriage was This was loose and incorrect; if he meant concluded without the knowledge of the the Prince's life estate, he certainly might House, and would, but for the casual se- | legally dispose of it; but if the learned verity of the season, have been consumma- gentleman would consult the original ted before parliament met. Nothing but charter, he would find that he could not absolute necessity could induce him to lay legally dispose of the see simple; it was any additional burthen on the public. simply the property of the Prince of Wales He was perfectly convinced, if his Royal for the time being: a property held in Highness was assisted by the credit of his succession, and no principle of justice royal father, that with the annual appro- could warrant the total alienation of it, but priation of 78,0001., the creditors would suppose it could be alienated for the paybe perfectly satisfied with their security. ment of these debts, they then would be

Mr. Jekyll said, that after the heavy paid by the public, and out of a public load of taxes already sustained by the fund; for as these revenues were in aid people, he would not consent to add the of the income of the Princes of Wales, weight of a single hair to their burthens, that income must be increased if they unless it could be made out that they were alienated. The same principle, aphad no other resource to look to. A tem- plied to the sale of the Crown lands; the porary alienation of the duchy of Corn. hereditary revenues of the crown were ne: wall might produce a considerable sum. cessary for the support of regal dignity? To vote 125,0001. for the establishment and if the forests were capable of improveof the Prince, was not liberality, but jus- ment, so as to yield a large revenue that 'tice, as every man who considered the might be made applicable to the support relative value of money must be convinced of the monarchy, it would make it unnethat a less sum could not be sufficient. cessary for the people to contribute an No reason had yet been given why a re- increase. He doubted whether the reve. source might not be found in the sale of nue of the duchy of Cornwall was to be the Crown lands. With respect to the accounted for during the minority of the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall from Prince of Wales. In every instance, since the birth of the Prince to his attaining the the first grant of the duchy, the king had age of twenty one, he conceived that the maintained the Prince of Wales out of the commissioners to be appointed by the bill revenues, till he thought proper to give must have powers to inquire into debts him the livery of the duchy, which he due to the Prince, as well as into debts due might do at any age. The revenues of by him, and that it would be their duty Cornwall might be considered as for knights service, and regulated by the act commissioners to be appointed by the bill, of Charles 2nd. Since the reign of Ed- ought to have the power of inquiring into ward 3d, no king had been held account the Prince's right to the revenues of the able for these revenues during the mino- duchy of Cornwall, during his minority. If rity of the heir apparent. In law a guar- his right should appear, and if the money dian in soccage, as a father to a son in should be to be refunded by the public, private life, was held accountable ; but a the difference would be, that of the prince's guardian in chivalry was by no means ac. being solvent or insolvent. In voting countable, nor ever had been held so. If 125,000l. a year for the Prince's estabthe revenue, during the period of the lishment, were not gentlemen conscious Prince's minority, was the property of the that they were voting 25,0001. a year for Prince, it was the property of his creditors. the liquidation of debts while they profesIf the money had been applied to the ge- sed to be doing no such thing? To vote neral purposes of the civil list, it had been more than 100,0001. a year, was laying applied to the public service, and the down the prodigal principle, that every public, not the king, must refund. He future Prince of Wales was to have an saw no benefit that would arise from chargequal income with that now voted. The ing the contigent burthen upon the civil minister who proposed it was not consistlist in the first instance; but if necessary ent with himself ; for he had formerly the law would decide; the king was thought 60,0001. not only sufficient but amenable to the law, and though he might ample. Would any man contend that the not be sued by as pressing means as his Prince's marriage called for an addition to subjects, yet "might debts due by him be his income of more than double? That the as effectually recovered as from any indi- Princess of Wales, for whom, in case of vidual ; and the trial of a single case would the death of the Prince, 50,0001. was determine the whole. Let the Prince of thought sufficient to maintain an entire es. Wales therefore, if he pleased try; but tablishment, would occasion an increase his Royal Highness would certainly then of expense to an existing establishment of bear in mind what he had already received | 65,0001. a year ? He thought the Prince's from his royal father from his infancy. debts ought to be provided for in the first

Mr. Sheridan said, that as he found it instance; but he should uppose taking any impossible for him

to vote a shilling, nay thing from the sinking fund, immediately or the weight of a hair, of the public money, contingently, for that purpose, till he had for the payment of the Prince's debts, he taken the sense of the House upon a plan must make his stand against that proposal; he meant to suggest. The minister would at the same time, he could not agree with have consulted both the king's honour and the plans suggested by his learned friend, his own, if when the marriage was profor the sale of Cornwall, or the forest posed, he had said that he would not bring lands. He had no objection io the sale down a message calling upon the House of the duchy of Cornwall, but he could for money, unless his majesty would bear not agree to have all the money arising a part of the burthen. It was the duty of from such sale applied to pay the Prince's ministers to have done this in the first debts. The duke of York had a contingent instance, but as they had not done so, it property, and all subsequent princes would became the duty of parliament. If the be injured: but if the duchy was sold, worst of Jacobins had devised a plan for and an equivalent to the Prince's life es- disgracing the Prince of Wales, and dishotate only applied, he thought the sale nouring the crown, it would have been would be attended with many advantages. such a plan as ministers had brought for

The greatest part of the revenues were ward. Were the expenses incurred by the swallowed up in the collection; it answer- Prince so very unpardonable? His majesty ed the purposes of jobbing and court in possessed many great and good qualities; fluence. The duchy though nominally of but on the subject of expense, or ofkeeping Cornwall, was ridiculously split and dis- promises with the public would the Prince persed; we had Cornwall in Coventry, in suffer by comparison with his majesty. Lambeth, and in Westminster ; and, as a When an establishment for the Prince of property, it could not possibly be less be- Wales was first proposed, the duke of neficial or productive in any other shape or Portland and his colleagues in office, were figure. The plan which he should propose of opinion that it ought to be 100,0001. would be of a different nature. He would His majesty thought otherwise, and it was not wish to press on the civil list. The settled at 50,000l. He had soon after opportunities of seeing the Prince's em- / wards by his majesty; and the Prince barrassments from the narrowness of his told him, that the promise was not to income, and the feelings to which those be insisted upon. In the king's mesembarrassments gave rise. Although sage, however, the promise was inserted; holding no official situation about his by whose advice he knew not. He heard Royal Highness, the Prince honoured it read with surprise, and being asked him with his confidence, and often asked next day by the Prince to contradict it in his advice, chiefly from the knowledge of his place, he inquired whether the Prince his fixed determination to accept of no had seen the Message before it was obligation of any kind whatever. It was brought down. Being told that it had not his custom to answer calumnies, many been read to him, but that he did not unof which he had suffered to pass unno- derstand it as containing a promise, he ticed; but he now declared, in the face declined contradicting it, and told the of the House and of the country, that he Prince that he must abide by it, in whatnever received from the Prince of Wales ever way it might have been obtained. so much as the present of a horse or a By the plan then settled, ministers had a picture. Lately, he had seen his Royal check upon the Prince's expenditure, Highness but seldom, from circumstances, which they never exerted, nor enforced which, although it had always been his adherence to the plan. In so far, minisopinion that a prince of Wales ought to ters, and not the Prince, were to blame. adopt no party in politics, it was unne- In the expenditure upon Carlton House, cessary to explain ; but on that very ac- they were still more blameable, for with count he was the more desirous of doing complete authority they had never interjustice to the Prince, especially, when he posed to stop the most extravagant and saw a disposition to place every part of useless waste of money. By the bill, the his conduct in the most odious point of House was declared a public work, and view. Let gentlemen recollect, what was the money expended upon it to be put out paid for the Prince in 1787. It was of the power of the Prince's creditors; the 160,000l., of this 60,0001. was for Carlton public ought, then, to pay for it. While House, and 80,0001. more was voted to ministers never interfered to check excomplete the building. A suspicion penses, of which they could not pretend arose, that this money was not applied to ignorance, the prince had recourse to the purpose for which it was voted; but means for relieving himself from his emupon investigation by a committee, it was barrassments, which ultimately tended to found to be faithfully applied. Take all increase them. It was attempted to raise the money he had got from the date of his a loan for him in foreign countries, a meafirst establishment to the present day, and sure which he thought unconstitutional, it would be found not to exceed 75,0001. and put a stop to: and after a consulta a year. In 1787, a pledge was given to tion with lord Loughborough, all the the House, that no more debts should be bonds were burnt, although with a consi. contracted. By that pledge, the Prince derable loss to the Prince. After that, was bound as much as if he had given it another plan of retrenchment was proknowingly and voluntarily. To attempt posed, upon which he had frequent conany explanation of it now would be un- sultations with lord Thurlow, who gave worthy of his honour, as if he had suffered the Prince fair, open, and manly advice. it to be wrung from him, with a view of That learned lord told the Prince, that afterwards pleading that it was against after the promise he had made, he must his better judgment, in order to get rid of not think of applying to parliament; that it. He then advised the Prince not to he must avoid being of any party


pomake any such promise, because it was litics, but above all, exposing himself to not to be expected that he could himself the suspicion of being influenced in polienforce the detail of a system of economy; tical opinion by his embarrassments; that and although he had men of honour and the only course he could pursue with hoabilities about him, he was totally un- nour was, to retire from public life for a provided with men of business, adequate time, and appropriate the greater part of to such a task. The Prince said he could his income to the liquidation of his debts. not give such a pledge, and agree to take This plan was agreed upon in the autumn back his establishment. He (Mr. S.) of 1792. Why, it might be asked, was it drew up a plan of retrenchment, which not carried into effect? About that pewas approved of by the Prince, and after- riod, his Royal Highness began to receive

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