leave to bring it up, I must immediately take a walk to the bar; if I bave leave to bring in a Bill, and am ordered to prepare one for that purpose, I shall take a walk the same way in a very little time; this I do not take to be any material difference: but as for the Bill itself, I do think it of such consequence, that if there were any method by which we could shew a more than ordinary regard to this Bill, that method ought certainly to be observed. Then Mr. Speaker read from the Journal of the House, of the 9th year of the reign of king George 1, the precedent mentioned by sir sir John Rushout, and said, "Gentlemen, it "The usual method of proceeding in this House, as to bringing in of Bills is, first, to move for leave to bring in a Bill for such or such purposes, and that being agreed to, the Ilouse then orders some of their own number to prepare and bring in the Bill; this is the usual method, but in the precedent I have now read to you appears, that the then Solicitor General (sir P. Yorke) moved for leave to bring up such a Bill, which was granted, and he immediately brought up the Bill, and the same was read a first time; from which it is plain that Mr. Solicitor, when he made his motion, informed the House that he had prepared such a Bill, and had it then ready to be laid before them, and therefore he moved for leave to bring it up, which it seems the House at this time complied with." Upon this some members suspecting that Mr. Speaker was, in pursuance of this precedent, going to put the question on the motion made by Mr. Sandys, they called out No, no!' Hereupon Mr. Speaker immediately resumed his speech, as follows; "Gentlemen, "As to the affair in hand, or any affair that comes before this House, I am not to appear of one side of the question nor of the other. It is my business to take care that the orders and methods of proceeding shall be regularly observed. In all questions about order I ain to inform you, so far as consists with my knowledge, of what has been done formerly in the like cases; and I arn to take care that all decency and order shall be observed, both in our debates and proceedings: This is my duty, and this I shall always endeavour to perform as far as lies in my power: In all cases I am to observe those directions that the House shall be pleased to give; and in the present case I only desire to know from you, what method you will observe, whether you are inclined to follow the precedent now read to you, or if you are inclined to proceed according to the method usually observed: But I must put you in mind, that if you proceed according to the usual method, decency requires that the Bill shall not be brought in immediately after the order for preparing and bringing in the same; it is necessary that some time should intervene between the order for preparing it, and the presenting of it to the House; and therefore I must desire, that those gentlemen who shall be ordered to prepare and bring it in, may not go immediately to the bar, and tell us, that they have, according to order, prepared such a Bill, and are ready to bring it in." Hereupon Mr. Sandys not insisting on his motion, but agreeing to have the Bill brought in according to the usual method, the question was put, That leave be given to bring in a Bill, "For making more effectual the laws in being bers of, or sitting or voting in the House of for disabling persons from being chosen memCommons, who have any Pension during pleasure, or for any number of years, or any offices held in trust for them;" This being agreed to without any opposition, Mr. Sandys and sir Edward Stanley were ordered to prepare and itself into a Committee of the supply, and as bring in the same. Then the House resolved the said Bill to the House, which was received soon as that was over, Mr. Sandys presented and read the first time, and ordered to be read a second time. Debate in the Commons on the Number of the Land-Forces.] February 2. The House resolved itself into a Committee, to consider farther of the Supply granted to his Majesty, and Mr. Andrews, member for Hindon, moved, "That the number of effective men to be provided for guards and garrisons in Great Britain, and for Guernsey and Jersey, for the year 1733, be, including 1815 invalids, and 555 men, which the six independent companies consist of, for the service of the Highlands, 17,709 men, commission and non-commission officers included." This motion was seconded by Mr. Whitworth, and supported by sir Thomas Robinson, sir Richard Lane, sir Arthur Croft, sir William Yonge, hon. Mr. Henry Pelham, Mr. Horatio Walpole, and sir Robert Walpole: but was very warmly opposed by several members; and the lord Morpeth thereupon moved, “That the number of effective men for the year 1733, be only 12,000 he was seconded by Mr. Harley, and backed by Mr. Bramston, Mr. Rolle, sir John Barnard, sir Joseph Jekyll, Mr. Shippen, sir William Wyndham, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Tho mas Wyndham, hon. Mr. Edward Digby, Mr. Pulteney, sir John St. Aubin, sir Thomas Saunderson, and sir John Hinde Cotton." The Courtiers urged in support of the motion, That though the public tranquillity of Europe was now established, yet the preservation thereof depended on so many accidents, that it could not be certainly relied on, and therefore we ought always to be in such circumstances, as to be able not only to defend ourselves, but likewise to fulfil all our engagements to our allies:. That there was still a very powerful and considerable party in the kingdom, firmly attached to the interest of the Pretender, and daily watching for an opportunity to dis turb the quiet of the nation, by endeavouring to overturn the present happy establishment; and therefore it was necessary to keep up an armed force sufficient to dissipate any sudden insurrection that might be raised by such men: That this party was still the more audacious, and the more to be dreaded, because they were encouraged and spirited up by a great many scandalous and seditious libels, which were daily spread abroad, even by those who pretended to be friends to the Protestant succession, and to the illustrious family now on the throne. Sir Archer Croft said on this occasion, That the continuing of the same number of forces, was the more necessary, because to his knowledge popery was increasing very fast in the country, for that in one parish which he knew, there were no less than seven popish priests; and that the danger from the Pretender was the more to be feared, because they did not know but that he was then breeding his son a Protes tant. Sir Robert Walpole took notice, That a reduction of the army was the chief thing wished for and desired by all the Jacobites in the kingdom; that no reduction had ever been made, but what gave fresh hopes to that party, and encouraged them to raise tumults against the government; and he did not doubt, but that if they should resolve to reduce any part of the army, there would he post-horses employed that very night, to carry the good news thereof to the Pretender and his adherents beyond seas. To this Mr. Horatio Walpole added, That the number of troops then proposed was absolutely necessary to sport his Majesty's government, and would be essary, as long as the nation enjoyed the happiness of having the present illustrious family on the throne. any the people of England had never gone Mr. Shippen likewise observed, That though the general arguments in the affair before them had often been canvassed in that House, yet, that the debate of this day seemed to him something new in former years the gentlemen, who argued for the continuance of a numerous standing army in time of peace, always argued for the continuance thereof only for one year longer; but that gentleman had now thrown off the mask, and were become daring enough to declare, That the same number of forces must always be kept up; and that a numerous army must for ever be continued, and be 'made, as it were, a part of our constitution;' that we have already continued the army so long, that some gentlemen had told the House this day, what no man would have ventured to have told them a few years ago: that if they Sir William Wyndham alledged, in support continued the same army but a little while of lord Morpeth's motion, That if they gave longer, it might be in the power of some genany credit to his Majesty's Speech from the tlemen to talk to the House, in terms no way throne at the opening of the session, which they agreeable to the constitution or to the liberties were in duty bound to do, the tranquillity of of our country: that to tell the House that the Europe never was, nor ever could be on a more same number of forces must be always kept up, firm basis than at present, and therefore a re- was a proposition fraught with innumerable duction was now to be made in the army, or evils, and more particularly with this, that it such reduction was never to be expected: That may make wicked ministers more audacious, as to the Pretender, he did not believe that than otherwise they would be, in projecting there was any considerable party for him in and propagating schemes, which may be inconthis nation: That that pretence had always sistent with the liberties, destructive to the been a ministerial device made use of only for trade, and burthensome on the people of this accomplishing their own ends; but that it was nation: that in countries which are governed in reality a mere bugbear, a raw-bead and by standing armies, the inclinations of the peobloody-bones, fit only to frighten children; for ple are but little minded, the ministers place that he was very well convinced his Majesty their security in the army, the humours of the reigned in the hearts and affections of his peo- army they ouly consult, with them they divide ple; upon that his Majesty's security depended, the spoils, and the wretched people are plunand if it did not depend on that, the illustrious dered by both. He added, That in this kingfamily now on the throne could have but little dom, his Majesty has the hearts, the hands, and security in the present number, or in any num- the purses of all his subjects at his service, and ber of standing-forces, that could be kept up for he wished he might have them always at his its defence: That if there was any disaffection service; but he hoped they would never be in or any discontent in the nation, it was his power; that his Majesty desired no such owing to the keeping up of such a nume- thing; that he never can desire it that depends. rous standing army in time of peace within only on the affections of his people; that therethis kingdom, whereby the people were sub-fore he was convinced that the demand of so nujected to many loads and hardships which merous a standing army never could come from they were never before acquainted with: That him that it was no way necessary for his supVOL. VIII. 4 C Mr. Rolle said, To him it appeared, in order to preserve ourselves against one who might perhaps prove a tyrant, we were going to establish 18,000 tyrants, and to make their establishment in some measure a part of our constitution and that in order to be free of a religion which we think a bad one, we are resolved to have none at all: that as to the party which the Pretender had in this nation, he could not believe there was any such thing: it was nothing but a mere pretence, and the making use of that pretence on all occasions, really could not but make him recall to mind that wicked and blasphemous saying of Pope Leo X. who, on occasion of a procession's passing by while he was at an elegant entertainment, said to his cardinals, Quantum profuit nobis hæc fabula Christi!' He concluded with these words: Let us do as our forefathers used to do, Let us remove the wicked from before the 'king, that so his throne may be established in righteousness.' Mr. Pulteney said, That he could not but be diverted with some arguments that were then, and had been on former occasions made use of, for keeping up a standing army in time of peace that the last year the House was told, that a Popish Solicitor was a dangerous man to the government, (see p. 903), and now that Popish Solicitor had spawned out seven popish priests, (see p. 1185), and even the post-horses (see p. 1185), had joined in this traitorous confederacy. In answer to the argument brought from the reduction of the Dutch forces, Mr. Pelham declared, That the reduction mentioned was not then agreed to by the States General: that it was a great question whether it would or no, and if it should, it was only a reduction of the last augmentation, whereas the last augmentation had been reduced by us long ago; so that the Dutch were now only going to make that reduction, which we had made upon the first prospect we had of seeing the tranquillity of Europe established: that though the reduction proposed in Holland should be made by them, yet they would still have in proportion a much greater number of standing forces, than what was now proposed to be kept up in this kingdom. Sir Robert Walpole added, That he could not help taking notice of an observation one gentleman had made, as to the people's never carrying their resentment to any pitch against the prince upon the throne, unless the prince, or those employed by him, were first guilty of some fault: that that member was pleased to admit of one exception to this rule, in the case of king Charles I. But the gentleman ought to have admitted of another exception, and that was in the time of king George I. That he did not know what pitch of resentment the gentleman might mean, but he was sure there were some people, who carried their resentment against that king to a very high pitch; and it could not be said that he was ever guilty of any fault, nor that those employed by him had, then at least, been guilty of any fault; yet some people carried their resentment so high, that they appeared in arms, in order to dethrone him; that he thanked God, they did not succeed in their attempt: that they hap pened to be defeated by the small number of regular forces we had then in the kingdom, which were much inferior to them in number; such was our great good luck at that time; that he must say, that those gentlemen, who desired to have the country left as void of defence as it was at that time, could have but little regard for our present happy constitution, or for the security of the illustrious family now upon the throne. but Then the question being put on the motion made by Mr. Andrews, it was agreed to by 239 against 171. Feb. 5. The above Resolution of the Committee was reported to the House, and thereupon Mr. Watkin Williams Wynn moved for the re-committing of that Resolution; which motion was seconded by Mr. William Bromley, and supported by sir John St. Aubin, Mr. Sandys, sir Wilfrid Lawson, Mr. William Gwyn Vaughan, Mr. Heathcote, and Mr. Wyndham. They were opposed by lord Hervey, lord Malpas, Mr. Danvers, Mr. Clutterbuck, sir Philip Yorke and Colonel Bladen. In this debate, Mr. Clutterbuck having said, That he wondered to see gentlemen so jealous of encroachments upon our constitution, at a time when it was in its greatest vigour, and shone forth in its purest lustre ; Mr. Wyndham, in answer thereto, gave the House an historical account of our constitution, and of the several dangers it had been in, and the changes it had gone through; and from thence he shewed, That it was very far from being now in its greatest vigour, and that on the contrary, there were many had customs had crept in of late, which were of dangerous consequence to our constitution; and might prove to be the cause of its overthrow, if some effectual remedy was not speedily applied. Then the question being put, for re-committing the above-mentioned Resolution, it was carried in the negative, by 207 against 143; after which it was agreed to by the House. Then The Lord Morpeth stood up, and represented the bad circumstances of the nation, by reason of the great debts and the many taxes the people groaned under, and therefore moved, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to desire his Majesty, that he would be graciously pleased, from bis earnest desire to ease his people of every charge not absolutely necessary, and his regard to the constitution of this kingdom, to take the first favourable op portunity of making a Reduction of those forces, which this House hath voted in pursuance of the Estimate laid before them by his Majesty's direction." 4 His lordship was seconded by Mr. Sandys, 21 " look on their presenting of such an address as any way disrespectful to him. Some members having taken offence at these expressions, Mr. Shippen replied, That he could not but look on himself as a very unfortunate man, for that in the late reign he had incurred the displeasure of many gentlemen, and had undergone a se vere censure of that House, for saying that it was one of the greatest misfortunes of his late Majesty's reign, that he did not know our language, and was unacquainted with our constitution; * and that now he had disobliged several others, by saying that his present Ma sir William Wyndham, Mr. Pulteney, Mr. tion, and is acquainted with our constitution but that, however, he could not help thinking but that his Majesty was thoroughly acquainted with both; and that therefore he would look upon such an Address, as proceeding from that honest care and concern, which every member ought to have for those who sent them thither, aud not as proceeding from any disrespect towards him: That his Majesty could not be displeased therewith, and that those they represented must be highly pleased to see the House so watchful of all opportunities to lessen their charge, and to recommend their ease and advantage to the crown. But the question being put on the lord Morby 203 against 136. peth's motion, it was carried in the negative, Motion for raising the Supply for the current Year, without creating a new Debt on any of the Funds.] Feb. 7. A motion was made, "That this House will raise the necessary Supplies for the current service of this year, with out creating any new debt upon any fund whatsoever." This motion occasioned a fresh debate, in which the speakers against it demonstrated, that it could not be carried into practice, without hazarding the success of the service for the current year and, that in fact, there was no difference in the two manners of raising the money, only, that the usual manner was more easy for the people; upon which, the motion was dropped without a division. But this motion was opposed by Mr. Talbot, lord Hervey, Mr. Henry Pelham, and sir Robert Walpole, who alledged, That the presenting of such an Address was in some measure inconsistent with the Resolution they had then agreed to; That it was resolving that the number of forces for the year 1733 should be so many; and addressing that they should not be so many: That these two Resolutions, following one another upon their Journals, would appear to be very extraordinary: That besides, the presenting of such an Address would be disrespectful to his Majesty, in so far as it would be a sort of insinuation that his Majesty might neglect taking the first opportunity of reducing the army, and thereby lessening the public charge; and as they never yet had the least occasion to suspect any such thing, it would he now unjust to harbour any such suspicion : that in many cases it might be the custom, it might be the duty of that House, to address the throne on particular emergencies; but in a case that regarded his Majesty and his administration in such a general manner, as the case in hand did, it would be most disrespectful: That they might as well address his Ma- Sir, The many and great losses our merjesty to govern according to law, or not to en- chants have sustained by the depredations comcrouch upon the constitution; and an Ad-mitted on them by the Spaniards, are I believe, dress in such terms would, they believed, be allowed to be shewing a very high disrespect to the King upon the throne. Mr. Shippen on the other hand, insisted, That his Majesty knew how much the nation was loaded with debts and taxes, and how inconsistent it was with our constitution to keep up a standing army in time of peace, and that therefore his Majesty, he was sure, would not Debate in the Commons on the Spanish Depredations.] Feb. 13. The affair of the Spanish Depredations having given great uneasiness to the whole nation, Sir Wilfrid Lawson rose up and spoke as follows: well known to every gentleman in this House; and it is likwise known, that by the second separate Article of the Treaty of Seville, all those affairs were to have been settled and adjusted in the space of three years; these three years are now expired, but I do not find that any body knows how any of those affairs have been * See vol. 7, p. 511, settled and adjusted, at least I cannot hear of any one of our merchants who has met with any redress. As the time is now expired, I hope our merchants have already got, or are very soon to receive a sufficient reparation for all their sufferings; this I hope for, and I should be extremely glad to have my hopes confirmed; it is an affair on which the happiness of many private men depends, and is of so much consequence both to the honour and trade of this nation, that it is incumbent upon us, as members of this House, to inquire into it; and therefore I shall move, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to give direction, that there may be laid before this House, copies of the Reports made by his Majesty's commnissaries in Spain, together with all letters and papers relating thereto; and what satisfaction has been made to the subjects of Great-Britain, for the losses they sustained by the depredations of the Spaniards in Europe, or in the Indies, pursuant to the second separate Article of the treaty of peace, union, friendship, and mutual defence, between the crowns of Great Britain, France, and Spain, concluded at Seville on the 9th of November, 1720." This Motion being seconded, Sir Robert Walpole stood up and spoke as follows: Mr. Speaker, Such an Address as has been moved for, may, if gentlemen insist on it, be presented to his Majesty, but I can now assure you, that there is as yet nothing that his Majesty can lay before you; for though by the treaty of Seville the commissaries of the two nations were to settle all the affairs referred to them by that treaty, within the space of three years from the date thereof, yet by reason of several unforeseen accidents, they never could meet so as to enter upon, or do any business till the month of February last: since that time they have been proceeding upon the affairs referred to them; but as yet there is nothing brought to that maturity, or formed into such a shape, as to be proper to be laid before this House. The delays they at first met with made it necessary to prolong the time for settling and adjusting those matters, and therefore it has been agreed between the two nations, that the three years shall be computed from that day in February last, on which the commissaries first met; and by that time it is to be hoped that all those af fairs will be settled in such a manner, as will give full satisfaction to every member of this House, and full reparation to every one of the subjects of Great Britain, who has met with a real injury from the Spaniards.-To this swer to this House, when accounts of the pro- Mr. Pulteney was backed by Sir; if in all this time there has been nothing done by those commissaries, I am much afraid that this affair may be spun out to a very great length. I do not know but that it may last as long as the gentlemen who are employed as our commissaries may live; for as they have thereby a good salary from, and all their charges borne by their country, they may not perhaps be too hasty in concluding the affairs referred to them, and thereby putting an end to the beneficial post they enjoy; and on the other hand it is to be presumed, that the Spaniards will make use of all the excuses they can invent, for delaying their making that reparation, which in justice they ought to do, and which we are engaged in honour to insist on. It is therefore our duty, as members of this House, to desire from time to time to know what is doing in an affair, in which both the interest and the honour of the nation is so much concerned, in order to prevent all unnecessary delays, and to satisfy the world that this nation does not tamely put up such injuries. Mr. Conduit replied to sir Thomas Aston : Sir; I find there is a very great mistake in prejudice to the worthy gentlemen our commissaries in Spain: I must do them the justice to declare, that to my knowledge they very much. despise the salaries they have from the public, and are pushing as much as possible the accommodation of all the affairs referred to them, in order that they may return home to look after their private affairs. I am very sure that there is not one of those gentlemen, who, for the sake of the salary would have gone out of the kingSir; There is a term made use of in the Ex-dom, or who would stay one month in Spain, chequer, called nichil, which term has been sometimes made use of by the gentleman who spoke last, and has often been given as an an Mr. Pulteney replied, or any where, for the sake of enjoying so trifling Master-worker of the Mint. |