information of those who are conversant in such affairs. As to the Scheme now talked of, I have not only examined it by myself as thoroughly as I could, but I have taken from others all the assistance and advice I. could get; and in all my inquiries in relation thereto, I have chose to consult with those who, I knew, had a perfect knowledge of such affairs, and had no particular interest in view, nor any private end to serve: From those who may have by-ends of their own, I never can expect impartial counsel, and therefore I have in this, as well as every other affair, thought it ridiculous to ask their advice. Such as it is, I shall be soon ready to lay it before you; then I shall give you all the information I have had in the affair, and will be most ready to hear and receive all the information or instruction, that can be given by any gentleman in this Ilouse. It is certain that there are daily very great frauds committed in the collecting of the public revenue, and if any way can be fallen on to prevent those frauds, and to enable the public to receive what it is now justly and legally intitled to, such a project ought to be embraced, and the author thereof, whoever be may be, would deserve the thanks of his country; for it would not only be a great advantage to the public revenue, but to every honest and fair trader in the nation; because that wherever a tax is laid on, and not collected regularly and duly from every man subject thereto, it is really making the fair trader pay to the public what the fraudulent trader turns into his own private pocket, and thereby the smuggler is enabled to undersell the fair trader in every commodity he deals in; by which all the fair traders in the nation must be at last ruined and undone. Sir William Wyndham replied, Sir; I have not the honour of being let into the secret of this extraordinary scheme, I do not as yet know what it is; but by all that I could ever yet hear of it, I believe, when it is laid before us the question thereon will appear to be, whether we shall sacrifice the constitution to the preventing frauds in the revenue? This I take to be a very material question, and therefore I think it is absolutely necessary to have a full House; for which reason, I shall be not only for letters to the sheriffs, but also I hope that every gentleman in this House, will write to such of his friends in the country as are members, and intreat them to give attendance on that important day. Sir John Barnard spoke next, When the honourable gentleman is prepared to lay his scheme before us. I hope he will move for some general Committee; if he does, I shall not give the House any trouble; but if he moves for a Committee to consider the frauds in any particular branch of the revenue, I shall take the liberty to oppose it, beVOL. VIII. cause there are frauds in every branch of the revenue; and perhaps I shall be able to shew, that there are as many frauds in other branches of the revenue, as there are in those which the honourable gentleman has a mind now to take particular notice of. I must think that the attaching our inquiries at present to the frauds committed in any particular branch, is like singling out a deer from the flock, in order to be hunted down; she is to be the first sacrifice, but the whole flock are to be hunted down at last This, I believe, is the case, and if I have been rightly informed, this scheme, in its first conception, was for a general alteration of the method of collecting the public revenue: It was for a general excise; but that, it seeins, was afterwards thought too much at once, and therefore we are now, I suppose to single out only one or two branches, in order that they may be first hunted down; but the very same reason, that may prevail with us to subject any : one branch of the revenues to the laws of excise, may afterwards prevail with us to subject every branch to those arbitrary laws; and as such laws are, in my opinion, absolutely inconsistent with liberty, therefore I must think that the question upon this scheme, even altered as it seems it is, will be, whether we shall endea vour to prevent frauds in the collecting of the public revenues, at the expence of the liberties of the people? For my own part, I never was guilty of any fraud; I put it to any man, be he who he will, to accuse me of so much as the appearance of a fraud in any trade I was ever concerned in; I am resolved never to be guilty of any fraud. It is very true, that these frauds are a very great prejudice to all fair traders, and therefore I speak against my own interest when I speak against any method that may tend towards preventing of frauds; but I shall never put my private interest in balance with the interest or happiness of the nation; I had rather beg my bread from door to door, and see my country flourish, than be the greatest subject in the nation, and see the trade of my country decaying, and the people enslaved and oppressed. Mr. Henry Pelham said, Sir; I wish this scheme, be what it will, were laid before us; for till it is, I believe we shall every day be falling into some debate or other about it, without knowing any thing of it. I do not know where the honourable gentleman, who spoke last, got his information; but as I have had the honour to converse sometimes with those who always knew most of this scheme, I can assure him, that there never was any such thing intended as a general excise, nor was there ever any design of making a general alteration in the method of collecting the public revenue. But I shall not at present say any thing farther upon the subject, because I think it a little odd to enter into debates about what we know nothing of. Mr. Perry, member for London, spoke in 4 K vindication of the merchants dealing in the, wine and tobacco trade: After which the question was put, and the Call of the House was put off till that day fortnight; and it was ordered, "That no Member of the House should presume to go out of town without leave of the House; That no leave should be asked for any member to go out of town but between the hours of one and two: And that Mr. Speaker should write Circular Letters to the sheriffs, and stewards of the several counties of Great Britain, requiring the attendance of the Members on that day fortnight: and that the House would proceed with the utmost severity against such members as should not then attend the service of the House." Then Mr. Sandys moved for the House to resolve," That such Members of that House, who should absent themselves without leave of the House, should be reputed deserters of their trust, and neglecters of that duty they owed to that House and their country." Hereupon, several members got up, some of whom as was thought to have seconded this motion; but Mr. Horatio Walpole was pointed to by Mr. Speaker, who said, “That he was against the motion the honourable gentleman had been pleased to make, as being a very extraordinary one, and such as there was then no occasion for" and therefore he moved for the order of the day, which motion was immediately seconded. Sir John Rushout then said, That the motion his friend (Mr. Sandys) had made, was perhaps a little extraordinary, but it was upon a very extraordinary occasion, and not without precedent, and therefore he would be for it. To this Sir William Yonge replved, That an honourable gentleman (sir W. Wyndham) had said, That every member ought to write to his friends in the country, and desire them to give attendance; but if the motion then made should be agreed to, they might, in his opinion, save themselves the trouble, for that no member then in the country would think he had one friend in the House, if any such resolution should be made against him. Hereupon Mr. Sandys said, That what he had moved for, was so far from being without precedent that there was a precedent for it very lately, and that was in the famous case of Dr. Sacheverell that when that affair was before the House there was such a Resolution made, and from thence it was that he took the very : words of the motion he had then made. Then the question was put upon Mr. Walpole's motion for the order of the day, because of its having been seconded before Mr. Sandys's motion was seconded, and that being carried in the affirmative, the other was dropped of course. Debate in the Lords on the Number of the Land Forces] March 6. The order of the lay being read, for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the Mutiny Bill, The Earl of Oxford moved, "That it be an instruction to the said Committee, that they do reduce the number of forces to 12,000 effective men, including invalids, &c." His lordship was seconded by The Earl of Winchelsea, who shewed the dangerous consequences of keeping up so great a number of regular forces within the kingdom in time of peace; and among many others, which he enumerated, this he said was one, "That it made ministers of state more daring than otherwise they durst venture to be, both in contriving and executing Schemes and Projects that were grievous and burthensome to the people; schemes that never could enter into the heads of any but those who were drunk with an excess of power." The Earl of Chesterfield stood up and said: My Lords; Whatever may be the bad consequences of keeping up a great number of regular forces in any country,, no argument drawn from thence can be any way applicable to the number of regular forces proposed by the Bill now before us to be kept up: by this Bill, my lords, it is proposed to keep up only 17 or 18,000 men; and such a small number is so very far from being dangerous to the liberties of this nation, that it is absolutely necessary for the preservation of our liberties, and for the support of our present happy constitution. We must, my lords, suppose two things, bekept up may be of any dangerous consequences fore we can suppose that the regular forces to our liberties: we must suppose them to be so numerous as to be able to hold the whole body of the people under subjection; and we must suppose the gentlemen of the army to be all of them such abandoned creatures, as that they will join together unanimously in the wicked design of enslaving their native country in the present case, neither of these suppositions can be made; such a small number as that of 17 or 18,000 men, can never be supposed to be able to hold the whole body of the people of Great Britain under any subjec tion: we have, I hope, many hundred thou would rise in arms, and would soon swallow up sands of brave men in Great Britain, who such a handful of men as that of our regular army, if they should but once be suspected of the people. And, my lords, I have so good an joining in any design against the liberties of opinion of the gentlemen now employed in the army, that I cannot suppose, I believe no lord in this House can suppose, that any great part of them would join in any wicked design for the enslaving of their country; if any attempts were to be made upon our liberties, I am persuaded that the gentlemen of the army would be the first to appear against such attempts, and would join heartily, and, I hope, unanimously in the defence of their country. The Marquis of Tweedale spoke next: My Lords; I am so far from being of opinion that the number of regular forces, proposed by this Bill to be kept up, is absolutely necessary for the preservation of our constitution, in such a time as the present, in a time of the most profound tranquillity, that 1 am thoroughly convinced no such number would be necessary even in a time of the most raging war; and, my lords, for the support of my opinion, I have the experience of all past ages. In the time of the late war there was never any such number kept up within the kingdom, and yet how rain were all those attempts that were then made against our happy establishment? nor I have no doubt but that they would be ready The unnatural rebellion that was raised It is not easy to determine exactly, what I have as good an opinion of the officers now the poor farmers and tradesmen must submit to be plundered and mal-treated by every common soldier, and the men of the best families in the nation may often be obliged to sue, in the most humble inanner, to those who were formerly their footmen or menial servants. This, to me, my lords, is a most terrible state, and therefore I must be for agreeing to the. reduction proposed. Then the Duke of Newcastle spoke as follows: it My Lords; I should be very glad to agree to the reduction proposed, or to any reduction; if I thought any way safe for us to do so; but, my lords, I have always observed, and any lord may make the same observation from the experience of times past, that we never as yet made any reduction in our army, but what it encouraged our enemies, both at home and abroad, to make attempts towards disturbing the peace and quiet of the nation; we might perhaps with a less number be able to defeat any insurrection that could be made against the government, but then we never could be at quiet for any considerable time, the enemies of the government would be always forming plots and designs against us; and the only method for preventing any such, and for preserving peace among ourselves, is to keep up such a number of regular forces, us may take away from such men all hopes of success the number now proposed is the least that can be thought sufficient for such a salutary end, and if it were much greater than it is, there would be nothing to be feared from it under his present Majesty or any of his illustrious family; the present royal family is established upon the principles of liberty, upon the principles of the revolution, and it is by such principles only that they can support themselves: the support of the present royal family, and the support of the liberties of the nation depend mutually upon one another; they so necessarily depend on one another, that neither can be destroyed without involv ing the other in the same destruction; and therefore I never can have any fears or jealousies of any number of forces kept up under his Majesty or any of his family. be for reduction, unless the public tranquillity shall happen to be in such a state as may be much more certainly depended on, than it can be at present. It is certain that there are two great contending powers in Europe, between whom there is and will be a constant and a perpetual rivalship, so that it is impossible for us, to be in an absolute cordial friendship with both at one time; whenever we fall into any degree of friendship with the one, we must always expect to be at a sort of variance with the other; while we keep ourselves in a good state of defence at home, we shall always be independent of either, we need never be obliged to court the friendship of the one too much, and we may conLast year, my lords, I observed that none temn any variance that we may happen to of your lordships declared openly against keep- be in with the other; but if we should strip ing up any number of forces, or any army at ourselves of our own proper defence, we must all; you seemed all to agree that it was ne- theu trust intirely to one of those powers to decessary to keep up some regular forces, and fend us against the other, by which means we yet I observe that all those who then ap- should soon be brought into an absolute depeared for a reduction, joined all together in pendence upon one of those powers, and should voting against the whole Bill: they were be obliged to join in every measure, and to against having any Bill at all for the punish- agree to every thing that such power could proment of Mutiny and Desertion; from whence pose to us. And as I am convinced that the I must conclude, that all those who were then number of regular forces now proposed to be for a reduction, chose rather to have no Mu-kept up, is absolutely necessary for our own tiny Bill, nor any regular army, than not to have that number reduced which they had proposed to be reduced. I do not know, my Lords, what the noble lord meant, when he talked of men's being drunk with an excess of power; I do not know any man that is so, or that has any opportunity of being so; nor do I know of any schemes that have been, or that are to be attempted or executed, that are either grievous or burthensome to the people. I have indeed some guess at what scheme the ' noble lord points at, but I believe that when that scheme comes before us, it will appear to be agreeable to the people, at least to all the honest part of the people, and it will most certainly appear to be beneficial to the nation in general. If the gentle men who are to propose it, did not think it so, they would be in the wrong to attempt it, I am sure they never would attempt it; but if they are convinced that it will tend to the improvement of the trade of the nation, and to the increase of the revenue, I should think them very weak if they were intimidated by those clamours that have been artificially raised against it, by men whose private interest or malice has prompted them to oppose what they must know to be for the public good. It is true, my Lords, the public tranquillity is to all outward appearance at present pretty secure, but our tranquillity both at home and abroad depends upon so many accidents, that it would be very imprudent in us to make any reduction at least for this year. Even at present there are perhaps some very strong reasons for us to be upon our guard; we may perhaps very soon have occasion for regular forces, but I cannot, my lords, explain myself; I beg leave not to do it; however, I may say, that I never will proper defence, at least for this year, therefore My Lords, I shall readily grant that there is a continual rivalship between the two great contending powers of Europe; there always will, I hope, be such a rivaiship; for if ever that rivalship should cease, which it never can but by one of them being swallowed up by the other, it would be auf unlucky thing for this nation, as well as for all the rest of Europe; but, my lords, are we to keep up a numerous standing army as long as that rivalship shall continue? if so, wB must never think of any reduction: No, my lords, that rivalship has already continued for many ages, and yet we have always supported ourselves against both, without having ever kept up any standing army; this new sort of de fence has been but lately thought on, and never can be a proper defence for this nation: The only way we have to secure ourselves at home, to make ourselves considerable abroad, and to force a respect from both these contending powers, is to do as we have always formerly done, to put our whole trust in our natural strength, which consists in our fleet, and in the natural bravery of our men in general; as long as we trust to this, and observe a neutrality as to both these contending powers, we shall be courted by both; we may fall in sometimes with the one, and sometimes with the other, according as may best suit with our own interest, and with the circumstances of affairs at the time: By such a management we shall always be able to hold the balance of Europe in our own hands, and never will have any occasion either to court the friendship, or to fear the resentment of any power on earth, p But, my Lords, if we begin to pursue contrary measures; if we be always the first to enter into alliances with the powers of Europe, and the original contracting parties in most treaties, we thereby give the power of holding the ba-invade us by land, a regular army of 60,000 men lance of Europe.out of our hands; and the neglecting our fleet and our militia, for the sake of keeping up a standing army, will soon render us contemptible to every one of our neighbours, unless we resolve to keep up a much more numerous army than what is proposed by this Bill, and such a proposition will I hope never be approved of by a majority of either House dad of Parliament. A Standing Army and a Military Law bas, my Lords, been always inconsistent with the liberties of the people: the officers and soldiers, under such a regulation, are always obliged to give the most implicit obedience to the commands of their superior officers; they must observe and execute the orders they receive without any reserve or hesitation; they must not inquire whether their orders be according to law; if they do, they are guilty of mutiny, and may be immediately shot for any such disobe dience. The chief commander of an army must always be vested with an arbitrary and absolute power over the army, and if his army be numerous, he may easily by their means extend his power over the whole people of the country where such army is kept up; and therefore, my Lords, in all countries where the people have any regard to their liberties, they ought never to keep up a greater number of regular forces than are absolutely necessary for the security of the government, and for the preservation of the country against any sudden invasion or inroad that may be made by a foreign enemy. In this country we have the happiness to be surrounded by the sea, we know how difficult and expensive it is to make any invasion upon us with any great body of men: any such invasion we must have a timely warning of, and by having our militia in good order, and our men, as they were formerly, all trained up to arms and military discipline, we should always be able to draw, upon any occasion, and in any place within the island, a great army together, to oppose our enemies; if they should happen to have the good fortune to escape our fleet at sea, In our present circumstances, my Lords, and considering the happy situation ofour country, I must be of opinion, that 12,000 men are abundantly sufficient for all the good uses we can have for them, and therefore I shall give my assent to the reduction proposed. The Duke of Argyle replied. it would be necessary to keep up at least three times the number let us consider the great. armies that are kept on foot hy our neighbours, and then we must conclude, that if they could would hardly be sufficient for our defence; and besides this, my Lords, we should be obliged to be at a great expence in fortifying all our cities and towns, to prevent our country's being overrun by any sudden invasion, or after any unfortunate battle. These misfortunes and charges we are kept free from, by being surrounded by the sea, and as long as we have a fleet superior to any one of our neighbours, it is hardly pos sible for them to invade us with any considerable armament; but, my Lords, we are not to trust intirely to our fleet for protecting us against a small force; a small feet may be so speedily prepared, an invasion with a small force may be so suddenly made, that the troops may be landed before we have any account of their embarkation; at least such a small fleet may be got out to sea, before we have any account of their design; and if they be once got into the wide ocean, it is well known how easily they may escape being met with by our fleet. If such a thing should happen, if ever a small number of regular forces should be landed, and we had no regular forces to oppose them at their landing, what would be the consequence? Why, my Lords, we might be subdued before we could have it in our power to make any resistance; for it is not to be supposed, that the militia of this or any country could make any resistance against a body of regular veterans; numbers of men are very little to be depended on; the men may be personally brave, but if they want discipline, a very numerous body of men may be easily defeated by a handful of regular soldiers: this we may be convinced of from history; this we may see, my Lords, if we but attend to what happens every day in other parts of the world. I have, my Lords, heard gentlemen contemn the Spanish armada, which was fitted out in queen Elizabeth's time against this nation; but in my opinion, it was lucky for this country that they never got to the shore; they bad, my Lords, 16,000 veteran troops on board, which were to have been reinforced with as many more as soon as the fleet could return to fetch them: I am afraid, if that armada had not met with the fate they did at sea, if they had not been dissipated by storms and winds, that wise queen would not have found a great deal of safety in the militia which she had raised, she would have found even the greatest number of them but a very unequal match for such a body of well disciplined veterans and but lately, my Lords, we were again in great danger from the same country; then indeed they did not pretend to be a match for us at sea, and for that reason they prepared for an invasion upon us with a small number of troops; and they did it so privately and so speedily, that they might have been landed before we knew any thing of their design, if their fleet had not again been dis |