soning made use of by the two honourable gentlemen, who have appeared against the bringing up of this petition: one of the honourable gentlemen says, that the Petitioners are aiming at an independency, and are disowning the authority of this House. This, Sir, in the present case seems to be a very odd assertion; is not their applying by petition to this House, as direct an acknowledgement of the authority of this House, as can be made by men? The other gentleman says, that the Bill now before us is a Bill for taxing the French only; this seems to be as odd an assertion as the other; does the gentleman imagine that the tax paid in this island upon French wine, is a tax upon the French? Does not every body know, that the whole of it is paid by the consumers here? It is so far from being a tax upon the French, that they have considerably raised the price of their wines since the high duties were laid on them here. As to the matter of form, Sir, I do not pretend to be a great master of it; but since I have had the honour to sit in parliament I remember, that several petitions have been received against duties to be laid on: however granting that it were a constant and perpetual rule not to receive petitions against such duties, yet certainly that rule could relate only to those duties, which were to be laid on for raising money for the current service of the public, it could not be presumed to relate to those duties, which were to be laid on for the regulation of trade only; and this last is the case now before us. The duties to be laid on by this Bill are so far from being duties for the supply of the government, that I do not believe that even those gentlemen, who appear so fond of the duties to be laid on by it, so much as expect or wish that any money shall be thereby raised for the use of the public; the Bill is not intended for any such end; it is rather in the nature of a prohibition, and it was never pretended that no petitions were ever to be received against a Bill for prohibiting any sort of commerce. It may be the case, that this House has sometimes refused to receive petitions from some parts of Britain against duties to be laid on; but this can be no reason why the petition, I have now in my hand, should be rejected: the people in every part of Great Britain have a representative in this House, who is to take care of their particular interest, as well as of the general interest of the nation; and they may, by means of their representatives in this House, offer what reasons they think proper against any duties to be laid on; but the people, who are the petitioners in the petition I have now in my hand, have no particular representatives in this House; and therefore they have no other way of applying or of offering their reasons to this House, but in the way of being heard at the bar of the House by their agent here in England; therefore if that general rule of not receiving petitions against duties to be laid on, he ever to be receded from, the case now be fore us ought to be an exception to the general rule. Mr. Conduit replied, Sir, I apprehend it has always been the cus tom of this House, I am sure it has been the custom ever since the revolution, to refuse receiving petitions against any duties to be laid on, and that without any distinction whether the duties to be laid on were for the raising of money, or for the regulation of trade: as our colonies are all a part of the people of Great Britain, they are generally represented in this House as well as the rest of the people are; and in all the resolutions of this House, a due regard will certainly be had to the particular in. terest of every one of them, so far as it is consistent with the general interest of the whole, for which reason I can see no occasion for making an exception as to them; and therefore I cannot but be of the same opinion with those gentlemen, who are for refusing their consent to the bringing up of this Bill. As for the duties on wine, mentioned by the honourable gentleman who spoke last, though they are paid by the consumers here, yet they may be looked on as a tax upon the French, for if it were not for those duties, a much greater quantity of their wines would be consumed here than there is at present, and consequently they would thereby draw a much larger sum of money out of this nation than they now do; and as to the advance of the original price of their wines, there are a great many other causes it may be owing to, but it never can be owing to the dimi nution of the quantity consumed. Mr. Pulteney spoke next : Sir; I do not pretend to be a master of form, but I believe there may be many precedents found, for justifying the House in receiving the petition now offered to us. I very well know, Sir, how great a master you are of the forms and methods of proceeding in this House, and therefore I shall always be as ready as any gentleman in the House, to submit to your opinion when any such question arises; but I cannot think, Sir, that any of your friends would desire you to give your opinion thus upon a surprize, in a matter which seems to be so much contested; nor do I believe that you would be ready to comply with any such unreasonable desire; if you should once give your opinion in any such dispute, I should be afraid afterwards to inspect the journals of the House, lest they should be found to contradict the opinion you had given: But if we are to search for precedents, I am sure that as to the present case, there will be no occasion for going any farther back than the revolution. Before that time I believe we can find few or no precedents any way relating to the question now in hand, because parliaments were not then so frequent, and taxes very rare. Let any gentleman but look into the Statute Books lying upon our table, he will there see to what a vast bulk, to what a number of volumes, our statutes relating to taxes have swelled since the Revolution; and how thin, how few the volumes are, that contain all the statutes relating to taxes that ever were made before that time: it is monstrous, it is even frightful to look into the Indexes, where for several columns together we see nottring but Taxes, Taxes, Taxes! It is true, Sir, when gentlemen reflect on the many bless ings we thereby enjoy, when they consider the many advantages we reaped by the Revolution, they will think that we could not pay too dear for so happy a turn in our affairs. As to the question now before us, I cannot see why it should be so much debated, I cannot see why the receiving of this petition should be so much opposed, unless it be that the rejecting of this petition, is to be made use of as a precedent for receiving no petitions against a certain scheme, which we expect soon to be laid before us: this, I ami afraid is really the case; for then gentlemen, who are not much masters of form, gentlemen who are but little conversant in the Journals of the House, may quote a precedent of but a few days standing, for not receiving any petitions that may be offered against that scheme; I do not indeed know whether there will be any such petitions, but if I may judge by the spirit which has already appeared in the nation, I can make no doubt but that petitions will be sent up from all parts of the country against that scheme. Sir Thomas Aston said, Sir; As to the point of form which is now the subject of debate, I cannot venture to give my opinion thereon, but I am surprized that the honorable gentleman should have any apprehensions of our refusing to receive any petitions, that may be offered against the scheme he hinted at: For whatever objection there may be against the House receiving any petitions, that are offered against duties to be laid on, there cannot surely be any objection against our receiving petitions, that may be offered against a new and a dangerous method of collecting duties already laid on. Mr. Sandys stood up again, and said, Sir; Since gentlemen seem so much to differ as to the point of form, I shall move, That a Committee may be appointed to search precedents, in relation to the receiving or not receiv ing petitions against the imposing of duties; for as some gentlemen have affirmed it to have been the constant usage of this House ever since the Revolution, to reject all such petitions, I must take the liberty to affirm the fact to have been otherwise; and it is so far otherwise, that if my motion be agreed to, I believe more precedents will be found for receiving, than for rejecting of such petitions. This motion was seconded by Mr. Heathcote, and thereupon sir John Barnard desired to withdraw the motion he had made: But that being opposed, and some debate arising as to that point, Mr. Speaker acquainted the House of its being their constaut rule, that when any motion is once made and seconded, the question, if insisted on, must be put upon that motion; it could not be withdrawn without the leave of the House: hereupon the previous VOL. VIII. question was moved for, and carried in the af firmative by 140 to 112. Then the question was put for bringing up the petition, which passed in the negative: after this the question being also put for searching of precedents, it passed in the negative. Debate on Mr. Horatio Walpole's Motion for laying a Duty of 5s. per Gallon on all Foreign Brandies, for encouraging the Manufacture and Raport of Home-Made Spirits.] March 9. The House went into a committee, to consider of the most proper methods for encouraging the Ma nufacture and Export of Home-made Spirits: and Mr. Horatio Walpole opened the debate with the following speech: Sir, As we are now in a committee for encourag ing Home-made Spirits, it may not be improper for us to take into our consideration the duties payable on French Brandies and other foreign spirits: As the laws now stand, the duties pays able upon French brandies amount in the whole to about 6s. 5d. per gallon, which has always been looked on rather as a prohibition, than as a duty to be fairly and honestly paid either by the importer of consumer; and indeed it has in fact been always found to be so, but few or none have ever paid that duty; those brandies have always been smuggled and stole in upon us, notwithstanding all the methods we could ever take to prevent it; or they have made use of an artifice to evade the laws, which is this: As the laws stand at present, the duties payable upon Flemish brandies amount in the whole but to 4s. per gallon, and as it is not possible to distinguish Flemish brandies from French brandies, therefore great quantities of French brandies were carried first to Rotterdam, and from thence imported upon us as Flemish brandies after that they were carried to Ostend, and from thence imported as Flemish; and now for some years past, they have been carried to Dunkirk, and from thence brought to the several ports of Britain, and entered as Flemish brandies. 3 As this practice is, Sir, an evasion of the laws in being, it ought certainly to be remedied, and the manner how, will be the proper question now to be considered; if the duties now payable upon French brandies should be laid on all foreign spirits, it would not only encourage the smuggling and running trade, but it would be a prejudice to our own distilling trade, for our distillers are under a necessity of mixing up a certain proportion of French brandy with our English spirits, in order to make them fit for use either at home or abroad; and therefore if such a duty can be thought of to be laid upon all foreign spirits, as will prevent their being sold in this country so cheap, as to interfere with the consumption of our home-made spirits, and yet not disable us from importing honestly and fairly as much as our distillers may have oc casion for in the manufacture of our home-made spirits, I hope gentlemen will readily come in + M to such a proposition. In order, Sir, to make such a proposition to this House, I have for some time considered the case, I have talked with some of the most noted distillers in town about it, and I have made all the inquiries I thought proper, for obtaining a full information as to this particular; and froin the whole, I believe that a duty of 5s. per gallon upon all foreign brandies, is the most proper medium to be fixed on. This motion met with very little opposition, only some members declared, That they thought a duty of 5s. 6d. would be more effectual for the purpose intended: Then Mr. Sandys stood up, and spoke as follows: Sir; I am glad to hear from the honourable gentleman over the way, that all mixtures are not to be looked on as public frauds, for it seems the mixing of French brandy with English spirits is not only no public fraud, but a mixture which ought to be encouraged, as being useful and necessary in the distilling-trade; yet with respect to the public, I'cannot conceive how the mixing of English cyder with Portugal wine, can be considered as a greater fraud than the mixing of French brandy with English spirits. I must likewise take notice, that the same gentleman seems to admit, that the laws of the customs and excise, when united and joined together, are found to be ineffectual for collecting the duties payable upon the commodities he mentioned, or for the preventing the smuggling and running of them into this kingdom; and therefore I hope, Sir, I shall not hereafter hear any proposition, either from that gentleman or any of his friends, for laying any other duties under the same circumstances, more especially since the uniting the laws of the customs and excise is well known to be, in all cases, an union, which is most grievous and most burthensome to the subject. In the course of this debate, Dunkirk having been mentioned as a port, Sir William Wyndham said, That he was surprized to hear it so much as nrentioned as a port: That it was against the honour of the English nation to acknowledge it as such, or to admit that it should ever be made use of as such That it was not now the proper subject of their consideration, but he hoped that the House would at some other time take an opportunity to resolve itself into a Committee to consider of an affair of so great importance. To this Sir Robert Walpole replied, That he hoped gentlemen would not be diverted from what was then the proper subject of their consideration: That Dunkirk's being mentioned as a port, must necessarily raise the just indignation of every Englishman: That no Englishman ever did, or ever could admit it as a port: But that whatever terms gentlemen might inadver tently make use of, yet he hoped no pretence would ever be from thence taken to infringe those rights, which this nation is by a most solemn treaty justly intitled to. Then the Committee resolved, "That the Act passed in the 2nd year of king George LL intitled, An Act, For laying a Duty upon Compound Waters or spirits, and for licensing the retailers thereof,' had been a discourage ment to the distilling of spirits from corn in Great Britain, and therefore ought to be repealed: That for the encouragement of the exportation of spirits drawn from corn in Great Britain, a drawback, or allowance of 61. 8s. per ton, ought to be paid and allowed on the expor tation thereof: And that the dutics payable upon brandy and spirits imported, except from his Majesty's plantations in America, should from the 24th of June next, cease and determine, and that in lieu thereof there should be granted to his Majesty a duty of five shillings per gallon, on all brandy and spirits imported from foreign parts, except such as shall be of the growth and manufacture of his Majesty's plantations in America." March 12. The above Resolutions were agreed to by the House, and a Bill ordered accordingly, which afterwards, with some amendments, passed into law. GREAT DEBATEAN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS ON SIR ROBERI WALPOLE'S PROPOSING HIS EXCISE SCHEME March 14. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the most proper methods for the better Security and Improvement of the Duties and Revenues, already charged upon, and payable from, Tobacco and Wines: The many Accounts, Returns, and other Papers, which the House had before called for, bejog first referred to the said Committee; and the Commissioners of the Customs and of the Excise attending, pursuant to an order of the preceding day; Sir Robert Walpole opened the debate with the following Speech: "Sir; "As I had the honour to move that the House should resolve itself into this Committee, I think it incumbent on me to open to you, what was then intended to be proposed as the subject of your consideration. This Committee is appointed for the better security of the duties and revenues already charged and payable upon tobacco. This can be done in no way so pro per and effectual, as by preventing the cominission of those frauds by which the revenue has already sustained such great injuries. As the proposed improvement is to be made by an alteration in the method of collecting and managing the duties already imposed, without any addition, or subjecting to the same duties any articles not already chargeable, I might have *The substance of this Speech is princi pally taken from heads and memorandums, in the hand-writing of sir Robert Walpole, among the Orford Papers. A few connecting sen tences have been supplied from the printed Speech in the contemporary publications: Po litical State; Historical Register. See also Chandler." Coxe's Walpole. avoided stating this project to a Committee of the whole House; but I have deserted the old road, and proposed a supply not immediately necessary for the current service of the year, that I might leave a greater freedom of consideration, by taking away every appearance of pressing necessity. I shall therefore only observe, that some previous provision must be made for the future application of the increased-sum which, should the plan I am about to propose to be adopted, will be received into the exchequer. "The contest, in the present instance, is between the unfair trader, on one side; the fair trader, the planter, and the public, on the other; but to the public must be referred my most forcible appeal, as they, in truth, bear the whole weight of the injury: for though the fraudulent factor seems to make the planter, retailer, and consumer equally his prey, yet the landed interest ultimately suffers the whole effect of the fraud, by making good what the subject pays, and the government does not receive. "In such a cause, I might reasonably expect the approbation of the fair trader, and the assistance of parliament; for assuredly, if in these times any cause can possibly be considered exempt from the operations of party, it is the cause now before the Committee. But, Sir, I am not to learn, that whoever attempts to remedy frauds, attempts a thing very disagreeable to all those who have been guilty of them, or who expect to derive future benefits from them. I know that these men, who are considerable in their numbers, and clamorous in their exertions, have found abettors in another quarter, in persons much worse than themselves; in men who are fond of improving every opportunity of stirring up the people to mutiny and sedition. But as the scheme I have to propose, will not only be a great improvement to the revenue, an improvement of two or three hundred thousand pounds by the year, but also great benefit to the fair trader, I shall not be deterred, either by calumny or clamour, from doing my duty as a member of this House, and bringing forward a measure, which my own conscience justifies me in saying, will be attended with the most important advantages to the revenues and commerce of my country. "Justum et tenacem propositi virum, "Amongst the many slanders to which the report of this project has exposed me, I canBot avoid mentioning one, which has been circulated with an assiduity proportioned to its want of truth, that I was about to propose a general excise. In all plans for the benefit of government, two essential points must be considered, justice and practicability: many things are just which would not be practicable; but such a scheme would be neither one or the other. Various are the faults of ministers, va rious their fates: few have had the crimes of all; none till now found that the imputation of crime to him, became a merit in others. Yet if I were to propose to you such a scheme, popular opinion would run exactly in that channel. It would be a crime in me to propose, a crime in you to accept; and the only chance. left to the House of retaining the favour of the people, would be the unqualified rejection of the project. But I do most unequivocally assert, that no such scheme ever entered my head, or, for what I know, into the head of any man I am acquainted with. Yet though I do nos wish to do wrong, I shall always retain a proper share of courage and self-confidence to do what I judge right, and in the measures I am about to propose, shall rest my claim to support and approbation on the candid, the judicious, and the truly patriotic. "My thoughts have been confined solely to the revenue arising from the duties on wine and tobacco: and it was the frequent advices I had of the shameful frauds committed in these two branches, and the complaints of the merchants themselves, that induced me to turn my attention to discover a remedy for this growing evil. I am persuaded, that what I am about to propose, will, if granted, be an effectual remedy. But if gentlemen will be prevailed on by industry, artifice and clamour, to indulge the suggestions of party prejudice, they and their posterity must pay dear for it, by the grievous entail of a heavy land tax, which they will have sanctioned by their pusillanimity, in not daring to brave the outrages of the fraudulent and self-interested. For myself, I shall only say, I have so little partiality for this scheme, except what a real and constitutional love of the public inspires, that if I fail in this propo sal, it will be the last attempt of the kind I shall ever make, and I believe, a minister will not soon be found hardy enough to brave, on the behalf of the people, and without the slightest motive of interest, the worst effects of popular delusion and popular injustice. "I shall for the present, confine myself entirely to the tobacco trade, and to the frauds practised in that branch of the revenue. If there is one subject of taxation more obvious than another, more immediately within the direct aim of fiscal imposition than another, it is such an article of luxury as depends for its use on custom or caprice, and is by no means essential to the support of real comfort of human life. If there is a subject of taxation where it is more immediately the province of the legis lature to suppress fraud, and strictly to insist on the payment of every impost, it must be that where the wrong is felt by every class of persons, and none are benefited, except the most dishonest and profligate part of the community. Both these descriptions apply to the subject before us. For though the use of tobacco is perhaps less sanctioned by natural reason than any other luxury, yet so great is the predilection for it, in its various forms, that from the palace to the hovel there is no exemp tion from the duty; and surely it must be considered an intolerable grievance, that by the frauds which are daily committed, the very poorest of the peasantry are obliged to pay this duty twice: once in the enhanced price of the article; for though the fraudulent trader contrives to save to himself the amount of the tax imposed by parliament, yet he does not sell it cheaper to the public; and a second time, in the tax that is necessarily substituted to make good the deficiency which has been by these ineans occasioned. Did it ever happen till now, that when an abuse of this kind was to be remedied, endeavours were used to make the attempt unpopular? "In discussing this subject, it will be necessary first to advert to the condition of our planters of tobacco in America. If they are to be believed, they are reduced to the utmost extremity, even almost to a state of despair, by the many frauds that have been committed in that trade, and by the ill usage they have sustained from their factors and correspondents in England, who from being their servants, are become their tyrants. These unfortunate people have sent home many representations of the bad state of their affairs; they have lately deputed a gentleman with a remonstrance, setting forth their grievances, and praying for some speedy relief: this they may obtain by means of the scheme I intend now to propose; but I believe it is from that alone they can expect any relief, "The next thing to be considered is, the state of the tobacco trade with respect to the fair trader. The man who deals honourably with the public, as well as individuals, the man who honestly pays all his duties, finds himself forestalled in almost every market within the island, by the smuggler and fraudulent dealer. As to our foreign trade in tobacco, those who have no regard to honour, to religion, or to the welfare of the country, but are every day contriving ways and means for cheating the public by perjuries and false entries, are the greatest gainers; and it will always be so, unless we can contrive some method of putting it out of their power to carry on such frauds for the fu immediate attention ought to be paid to the current service, the fund may be reserved fon that use and it is manifestly unjust and impo litic, that the national debt should be continued, and the payment postponed; or that the heary duties on our manufactures should remain, which are justly paid, and without fraud; or that ways and means for the current service should be annually imposed, if the present re venues will answer all or any of these purposes. This, I am convinced, will be the effect of the scheme I am to propose, and whoever views it in its proper light, must see the planters, the fair traders, and the public, ranged on one side in support of it; and none but the unfair tradera and tobacco factors on the other. "I am aware that the evidence to be ad duced in proof of the existence of the frauds I am about to enumerate, is not such as would be sufficient to induce a court of justice to pro nounce the guilt of those to whom they may be imputed. But as I do not undertake the task of inculpation, if I make out such a case to the Committee, as will enable them to decide on the existence of the crime, they will not hesitate to apply the remedy. They will consider the deficiency of strict legal proof, as a motive for their interference, rather than their forbear ance; more particularly when they reflect, thas if persons are with difficulty induced to give testimony in such a case as this, where the good of the country only is to be pursued, without injury to any one, they will be still less easily brought forward to give such information an will tend to the ruin of others. In this case it is hardly too much to say, that gentlemen should learn from the example of those interested, how to conduct themselves: they, hape, with an alacrity and unblushing eagerness which proves, which confesses their guilt, hastily ins ferred the most violent intentions in the frienda of government; they have assumed facts, and inferred intentions, without the smallest data on which to found their presumptions. I ask no more than this: if I succeed in making it appear that gross frauds are daily practised, and the revenue injured in a most daring and profligate manner; that the proposed remedy, should it appear adequate and applicable, may "We ought to consider the great loss sus- be resorted to, without subjecting me to the tained by the public, by means of the frauds necessity of procuring that which is, in fact, committed in the tobacco trade, and the addi- unattainable, such precise proof as would satis tion that must certainly be made to the reve-fy the administrators of the laws in the disposal nue, if those frauds can be prevented in future. By this addition, parliament will acquire the means of exercising one of its most enviable privileges, that of diminishing the burthens of the country, the power of doing which will thus be presented to them in various forms. If it should be the prevailing opinion, that the discharge of the national debt should be accelerated, this increase offers an abundant resource. If the idea should prevail, that those taxes ought to be alleviated which fall heaviest ou our manufacturers and the labouring poor, as soap and candles, this increase will replace the dif ference. Or if it should be judged that more ture. of property, or deciding on guilt. Such evidence, and such facts as I have been able to collect, it is my duty to lay before you; and it is your duty to support me, unless my plan appears totally void of reason and justice." The minister then proceeded to give such preliminary statements and calculations, as were necessary to render his plans intelligible to make the abuses obvious, and to demonstrate the propriety and necessity of reform. From these statements it appeared, that the existing duties on tobacco amounted to sixpence and one-third of a penny. on every pound. The |