which they judge to be too small, as well as to diminish those which they may think extravagant. Mr. Walter Plumer said, Sir, I look upon this motion to be a very proper one at present, and I hope the house will agree to it because I think, Sir, we ought to search whether or no there be a beam in our own eye in order to pull it out, before we begin to pull out the mote that is in another's. I presume the honourable gentleman, who made this motion, made it only as a prelude to something of more consequence; I hope, after we have examined into, and settled the fees to be taken by our own clerks and servants, we shall next proceed to examine into, and settle the fees to be taken by the officers, clerks and servants of all our courts of law. As to the fees of this House, I do not know what may be the case, but I am sure that the other is a very great grievance, and loudly complained of by the whole nation. We have had printed lists of all those fees laid before us: as yet we have gone no farther but only to receive them; those who brought them in have gone a little farther; they think they may now, by authority of parliament, exact all the fees, at least, that are mentioned in those lists, and from thence they have taken occasion, even to encrease several of their fees much beyond what they had formerly any authority for; so that unless we proceed farther, and make some proper regulations as to all those lists of fees that have been laid before us, we have by calling for them, done rather an injury than a service to our country. I shall therefore be for agreeing to the motion now made, on purpose that we may, with decency, proceed to the inquiring into and settling the fees, that are to be taken in all the courts of law, and other offices in the nation. Mr. Winnington stood up, and said, but Sir; According to the order of this House, a List of the Fees usually taken by every clerk and servant belonging thereto, has been brought in, and has been, I believe, perused by most members of the House. I do not hear that any objection is made to any of them, or that it is pretended that more has been at any time taken; I therefore do not see what use there is for a Committee in this affair; I believe if we order them to be printed, and copies to be fixed up in the public offices belonging to the House, it will be sufficient for preventing any exorbitant demands in time to come, and will be as effectual as any thing that can be done by a Committee. Ι suppose the gentlemen have some farther design in this matter; but if they have, I think they may proceed upon it, without giving the House any needless trouble as to the Committee now moved for, Mr. Pulteney answered, Sir; I was not at all in the secret as to this motion; I did not know any thing of what farther design there may be, so that I am sure I cannot in this affair be any way a blabber. I agree with the honourable gentleman who spoke last, as to the ordering the List of Fees to be printed; let them be printed and published, and if my worthy friend pleases, let them be printed in the Free Briton* too: But I cannot think, Sir, that we ought to rest satisfied with the List delivered, without inquiring any farther about the matter; because a List of Fees has been delivered in, we are not surely from thence to conclude, that no greater fee has ever been taken than what is mentioned in that List: exactions are always made in a private clandestine manner; such secrets may be discovered by a Committee, but we are not to expect that ever the authors of such will, in a public manner, come voluntarily and give the House an information of the crimes they have been guilty of. It is well known how terrible parliamentary inquiries are to those who have been guilty of any iniquity: and though by the inquiry now moved for, no iniquity shall be discovered, yet the terror of it will remain, and will be a bar to extortion for a long time to come. Then the question being put, it was carried in the affirmative, and a Committee was appointed accordingly. Debate in the Commons on a Petition of Sir Thomas Lombe relating to his Silk Engine.] The same day a Petition was presented by sir Thomas Lombe, alledging, "That he had, at his own expence, and with the utmost difficulty and hazard, discovered and introduced into this kingdom the art of making fine Italian organzine or thrown silk out of fine raw silk, by large engines of a most curious and intricate structure, which commodity was absolutely necessary to carry on our silk weaving trade, and was formerly bought with our money, ready worked in Italy: That his late Majesty had granted him a patent for the sole making and using the said engines for the term of 14 years; but that several years of the said term was expired before he could finish the said engine, and by reason of other difficulties, the whole term was almost expired before he could bring the manufacture to perfection; and therefore praying that the House would take his case into consideration, and grant him a farther term of years for the sole making and using the said cngines, or such other recompence or relief as to the House shall seem meet." Upon this Mr. Perry stood up and said, That he knew that the Petitioner had been at a very great trouble and expence about the setting up of that engine; and that a great part of the term granted by the patent had passed, before any advantage could be made of that most useful invention, and therefore he moved, That the Petition should be referred to the consideration of a Committee. Mr. Oglethorp added, That since the Petitioner had, at his own expence and hazard, in * A news-paper then printed in defence of the ministry, troduced a most useful and necessary manufac- nar the bringing of this invention into their own country. They knew that there would be great difficulty and danger in this undertaking, because the king of Sardinia had made it death for any man to discover this invention, or attempt to carry it out of his dominions; however, the petitioner's brother resolved to venture his person for the benefit and advantage of his native country, and sir Thomas was resolved to venture his money, and to furnish his Sir Thomas Aston said, That patents had al- brother with whatever sums should be necessary ways been looked upon as prejudicial to the for executing so bold and so generous a design. trade and manufactures of this kingdom, more His brother went accordingly over to Italy, and especially when continued for any long term of after a long stay, and a great expence in that years; for which reason their ancestors had country, he found means to see this engine so been so wise as to make a law against the often, and to pry into the nature of it so granting of any patent for a longer term than rowly, that he made himself master of the 14 years; and it would be a dangerous prece- whole invention, and of all the different parts dent for them to prolong the term, or to grant a and motions belonging thereto. After his renew term to any patentee: That the Petitioner turn to England, sir Thomas, who knew the had enjoyed the benefit of his patent several excellency of his brother's genius, and could years, had carried on a vast trade under the depend upon his word, was convinced that he same, and had thereby acquired a great deal of was fully master of the thing, and therefore riches, which he thought was a sufficient recom- he chearfully agreed to supply whatever expence for the charge or hazard he had been at: pence should be necessary for setting it up in That the prolonging of the term would not only England; but that he might have the same be to prevent the nation's making any benefit advantage, that other persons have and are of that invention, but also to give the Peti-intitled unto upon such occasions, he applied tioner a farther opportunity of disturbing all and got a grant of a patent from his late Maother inventions, works or engines, any way re-jesty in the year 1718. This engine is so large, sembling his, which would be a great discouragement to all new improvements or manufactures, and consequently of dangerous consequence to the trade of this nation; therefore he could not but be against even referring the Petition to the consideration of a Committee. Sir John Rushout said, 'That as. no man was intitled to a patent, but he who introduced some new invention or manufacture into the kingdom, he did not know, whether the petitioner had at first any title to a patent; for that to his knowledge there had been, in the parish where he lived, some such manufacture for upwards of thirty years. However, supposing that the petitioner had at first a good title to a patent, yet he could not think that there was any reason for renewing the term; but as all these things would properly come under the cognizance of the Committee, therefore he would not be against referring the petition to the consideration of a Committee.' Mr. Perry stood up again, and spoke as follows: Sir: The petitioner, sir Thomas Lombe, happening to have a brother whose head is extremely well turned for the mechanics, and both of them being well informed of the great charge, that this nation was yearly put to in the purchase of that sort of Italian thrown-silk called organzine, and that the same was all made within the dominions of Savoy, by the means of a large and curious engine which had been set up and kept at work for many years in that country, but had been kept so secret, that no other nation could ever yet come at the invencion; they resolved to make an attempt for and there are so many wheels, motions, spindles, and other things belonging to it, that it was three years after he had obtained his pa tent, before he could possibly finish the engine. After the finishing thereof, he could make no benefit thereby, till he had procured and instructed a sufficient number of persons how to work the same; and before he could do this, his Sardinian Majesty had got an account that the engine was set up in England, and he was so sensible of the disadvantage it would be to his country, to have that sort of thrown.silk made in any other part of the world, that he immediately prohibited the exportation of rawsilk out of his country; and before sir Thomas could fall upon any way of getting a sufficient quantity of raw-silk stole out of that country, so as to make any advantage of his engine, the term of his patent was within a very few years of being expired, from which we may conclude that it is impossible, that he could as yet have got a sufficient recompence for the hazard and expence that he has been at. There might have been before, there may be still, some other sorts of twist-silk made in England; but there never was any such as Organzine made, nor was there ever any such engine in England, as this that has been brought in and set up by the petitioner and his brother, Those who are expert in the silk-manufactures know well the difference between the Organzine and any other sort of twisted-silk, but gentlemen who have not narrowly examined into the affair may be mistaken; but as to the engine, the difference between it and any other may be easily discovered: It is a very large engine, which is first moved by water, by the means of which first motion a great many wheels and spindles are set a moving, and thereby great quantities of silk are twisted in a much finer manner, and by much fewer bands, than can possibly be done by any engine that was ever yet invented. Mr. Barnard spoke next : Sir; The chief reason why the petitioner has never yet been able to make any great advan. tage of his invention is, that no raw silk is proper for his purpose but the Italian, so that he could have but very little, except what was privately stole out of the dominions of Savoy. He has been at the expence of making several experiments of the Turkey raw silk, but has always found that it is impossible to make good organzine of that sort of silk. He has likewise tried the raw silk brought from China, and he finds that it would do as well as the Italian, but then the company keeps it at so high a price, that it will not answer; what may be the reason of the company's keeping that silk so dear, I know not; I can find no other reason for it, but only the great profits that company are resolved to make of every thing which they have an exclusive privilege for dealing in. I am sure they purchase it in the country at a very cheap rate, and the danger or expence of bringing it home cannot be so great, but that they may sell it at a more reasonable price. The petitioner has likewise made some experiments of the raw silk that has been produced from Carolina, which has answered extremely well; and if there were enough of it, we should not perhaps be obliged to lay out so much of the nation's money on the purchase of Italian raw silk, nor should we have occasion to trouble ourselves much about the prohibiting of the exportation of their raw silk; but as yet there is but very little silk produced from Carolina, so that the petitioner could not make any advantage thereby, I do not know what this House may judge to be a proper recompence to the petitioner, for the hazard and expence he has been at; but whatever resolutions may be made in this affair, all possible care ought to be taken for preventing the invention's being carried out of this country. If we can keep our neighbours from stealing it from us, it will be a great encouragement to several branches of our silk manufacture trade, we shall have the benefit at least of supplying most of them with that sort of thrown silk called organzine. Mr. Oglethorp stood up again, and said, Sir: The act for confining the king's patents to the term of 14 years, was made in the reign of king James I. The bubbles and monopolies which were erected, and the many enormities which were committed about that time and for some years before, had become a public grievance, and was loudly exclaimed at; and the reason for making that law, was to prevent the setting up of any such bubbles or monopolies for the future. The petitioner has never so much as endeavoured to make aubble of bis affair, nor has he ever grasped at the setting up of any unlawful menopoly. He pretends to nothing else but what every author of a new invention is reasonably intitled unto, that is, to have the sole use of his own invention for so long a time, as may be a just recompence to him for the hazard and expence he has been at, in bringing his invention to perfection. If he can shew to this House, that he has not yet had such a recompence as is sufficient, we are not confined by the former law; we not only may, but we ought, to bring in a Bill for prolonging the term of his patent, or we ought to grant him such other recompence as may be deemed proper and reasonable. Raw silk may be bought even in this country for 16s. per pound, but when that very raw silk is manufactured and made organzine, it sells for 24s. per pound; the difference, which is fifty per cent. is all clear money got to the nation; the 8s. per pound, which is added to the price of that commodity, is all clear gain to us, because it is added by the labour and industry of our own people; and since this gain can be made only by the means of this engine, we must grant that this gentleman has, at his own hazard and charge, brought home a very useful and profitable branch of trade to his own country, for which he certainly deserves a recompence. If he can shew that he has not as yet a recompence by means of the patent granted to him, either because of the difficulty of bringing his invention to perfection, or because of inevitable accidents that have occurred, his case ought to be considered; and the only proper way to inquire into this matter, is to refer his petition to the consideration of a Committee. Mr. John Drummond, member for Perth, said, was Sir I shall only take notice that since the, time that this gentleman's invention brought to perfection, our exports of gold and silver lace have increased to a great degree; the reason of which is, that the sort of twist or thrown silk, that is made by the means of his engine, is the only proper silk that can be made use of in the manufacture of gold and silver lace; and we having now that sort of silk in much greater plenty, and much cheaper than we ever had it before, our manufac turers in such laces have been able to sell those manufactures much cheaper than they were ever sold before in this country, from whence has proceeded the great increase of our exports of that commodity; and when there are such quantities exported, we may depend upon it that there is very little, if any, imported, notwithstanding that there is perhaps more of it now wore in this country than ever was before. This I take notice of, Sir, because I look upon it as an improvement in our manufactures, that is intirely owing to this gentleman's invention. Then the above petition was referred to the consideration of a Committee: A Bill passed afterwards, in this session, for allowing sir Thomas Lombe 14,000l. as an encourage ment for his useful invention, but without re- Debate in the Commons respecting the Out- upon a day of review, though the old man be perhaps the better soldier of the two, and not only willing but able to serve his country for many years; yet he is discharged as unfit for Chelsea College: they are admitted into the. service, and brought in as a Pensioner upon College as men old and inform, yet when once their they are got in, they seem to be immortal; numbers never decrease; surely there are many of those immortal old men who live so long as idle Pensioners of Chelsea College, that might Mr. Pulteney spoke on that occasion as fol- have served for a great part of that time as good lows: I do not now rise up to make any motion: but I think I am, in duty to my country, in duty to those who do me the honour to give me a place in this House, bound to take notice of some Accounts or Estimates which have been laid before us, and which to me seem to be somewhat extraordinary. I must in general observe, that the estimates of the public expence increase every year from year to year there is always some new article to be provided for, or some addition made to the old. If we at any time get free of an extraordinary charge, it always leaves some marks behind it; there is always some part of it remains, and is continued to be a burden upon the people: these small remains may be by some thought too inconsiderable to be taken notice of, but to me nothing seems to be inconsiderable that is a charge upon the people; these small remains and these annual additions, by thus yearly increasing, may come at last to be a burden too heavy to be borne. soldiers even in a marching regiment, inore especially in time of peace, when there is not the least occasion for their being obliged to undergo any great fatigues; their duty cannot be extraordinary, and their marches may be made as easy as they please. I remember that at the last scrutiny which was made into the affairs of that Hospital, in which a right honourable person had a principal concern, above one half of the persons, whose names were entered as Pensioners, could not possibly be found; and of those who were entered as letter-men, there were above 100, which was at least one half, discharged; I do not indeed know why there should be any entered in that character, I do not see that there is any necessity for it. We have heard, Sir, a great deal of the fine roads lately made through the Highlands of Scotland, and I do not doubt of their being such as they have been represented; nor do I doubt but that the gentleman, who had the oversight and direction of them, has taken care to execute the design as faithfully and as frugally as was possible; but I cannot see what I cannot now omit taking notice of the ar- it was that made such a design so absolutely ticle of Chelsea-College; by the estimate now necessary these Highlanders, it is true, were laid before us, that article appears to be heavier made appear terrible before they were known, than it was last year. During the last war this but after we got a little more into their acnation maintained near 200,000 men, of which quaintance, they appeared to be but men; and near 90,000 were national troops, yet towards after they were disarmed, I cannot see that the end of that war, the Pensioners of Chelsea there was any great occasion for this extraordiCollege did not amount to above 2,000, whereas nary expence, for which I find there is now if we include the regiment of invalids, and the charged about the sum of 10,000l. but since we several independent companies of invalids, they have been at this extraordinary and unnecesnow amount to above 4,000 men. I do not sary expence, and that the Highlands are theredoubt but the commissioners do whatever they by made accessible, whenever we have a mind can to examine, and to admit none but those, to send any troops into that country, there is who by the rules of that Hospital appear to be certainly no farther occasion for the six Highintitled to be taken in. I likewise know how land companies, which are kept up only for many solicitations they must daily meet with, preserving the peace of that country these six and how hard it is in most cases to refuse them; companies amount to above 500 men, and the yet for the sake of their country they ought to maintaining of them costs the public much be extremely cautious in this respect; there may above 5000l. yearly; this expence may cerbe many who are by the rules intitled to be tak-tainly be now saved, and all the service they en in, and yet are not proper objects of charity and compassion either public or private. I know, sir, that there is a spirit, among the of ficers of the army, for having all their regiments look well to the eye; there is a sort of emulation among them, who shall have the most young and the best looked fellows in their regiment: this is the cause that many a brave old soldier is discharged, in order to make room for a spruce young fellow, who can powder his hair and dress so as to make a good appearance VOL. VIII do, or can possibly do, may for the future be performed by detachments from the regiments, which are kept in that part of the island. These things, Sir, I thought myself obliged to take notice of, but I shall make no motion, only I hope that they will be seriously considered, and that all proper methods will be taken for lessening the public charge as much as possible. Sir William Strickland stood up and said :. Sir: I have had the honour to serve for some 30 time at the board, for admitting pensioners into Chelsea-hospital; I can answer for it, that in all my time, and I believe I may say for several years before, all imaginable care has been taken, to admit none but those who were justly intitled to that public charity, or rather that public reward for long and faithful services: None have ever been admitted but such as had been disabled in the service, or such as had served their country for at least twenty years, and were discharged as unfit for farther service. The soldiers have always been obliged to bring certificates from their officers of the time of their service, or of the manner of their having been disabled in the service. We have been so cautious, that we have made the fellows strip to the skin, that we might examine them the more narrowly, and might be the better able to judge whether they were actually disabled and unfit for any farther service; and after such a strict inquiry, we could not in conscience, we could not in humanity, refuse to admit them. Sir John Rushout spoke next: Sir: It does appear strange to me, that notwithstanding our long peace, the number of those pensioners, and the charge the public is put to for maintaining them, should be every day increasing: twenty years services I must grant to be a long term, but yet it is not always a proper qualification; if a man enters young into the service, which most do, he may have been a soldier for twenty years, and yet very fit for service, or for any day labour; and if such a man be discharged, I see no reason why the public should be obliged to maintain him; he may work för his daily bread. The public ought not to encourage any man to live idle, if he can possibly earn a subsistance by his daily labour: I believe, Sir, there are many, who are now pensioners of Chelsea-hospital, who have wives and children, and who not only can, but do earn as much by their labour as might maintain them and their families; what they have from the public only contributes to encourage and support their extravagance: that hospital was never designed for such men; it was designed as a charitable relief only for those, whose great age, or great sufferings in the public service, had rendered utterly incapable of maintaining themselves by their daily labour, and such only can regularly be admitted as pensioners upon the public. Mr. H. Pelham answered: Sir: I have bad the honour to be one of the Chelsea-board for some years, and am very certain that ever since I had any concern in it, there have been few or no impositions ever put upon the Commissioners; I could never indeed discover that any one man was adinitted, who was not justly intitled thereto. The worthy gentleman, who spoke last, is mistaken, if he thinks, that the number of the pensioners of that college is this year increased, upon the contrary the number is diminished: there are twenty-two pensioners less this year than there were the last; it is true, the sum charged for that hospital is larger now than it was last year, but that proceeds from this being leap-year, so that there is a day's subsistance for the whole number of pensioners more than there was last year, which amounts to a much larger sum than the savings, by the decrease in the number of pensioners does amount to. As for the great increase of pensioners upon that college within these few years past, it is very easy to account for it, because there were some time ago two or three regiments brought over from Gibraltar and Port-Mahon, that had been in garrison in those two places for 15 or 16 years, in all which time there had been few or no men discharged upon account of age or infirmity, from either of those regiments; the reason of which, I suppose, was the great expence of sending them home, and carrying over fresh recruits in their room : these soldiers having but very little fatigue, the officers found means to make them perform all the duty that was required of them, while they remained in garrison: but upon their being brought home, the change of the air, added to their own age and infirmities, made most of them entirely un fit for a march, or for any duty whatever; and it being then easy for the officers to supply their places with young men that were fit for service, great numbers of them were discharged, so that I may say, that the most part of those two or three regiments came all upon the hospital at once. Another reason, Sir, that has contributed much to the increase of those pensioners, is, that there is as yet but a very bad provision for decayed soldiers in the hospital in Ireland, which is the cause, that whenever any regiment is brought over from that country in the course of changing, the old and disabled men, who while in Ireland, did all they could to conceal their age or infirmity, then begin to solicit, and often obtain a discharge and certificate from their officer, in order to get themselves entered as pensioners in Chelsea college: this has been a sort of grievance, but his Majesty is doing all he can to get it rectified, as he does with respect to every grievance as soon as ever he discovers it; and it is to be hoped, that he will have success in his endeavours as to this. The worthy gentleman was in the right, when he said, that twenty years service was not always a proper qualification; it is not always allowed of as such; I have myself known several examples, when a sturdy well-looked man has conie with a proper discharge and certificate from his officer, in order to be admitted upon the College, that the board have been so far from admitting him, that they examined him as to the method of his obtaining his discharge, and if it appeared that he had solicited the same, they have absolutely refused to admit him; upon the other hand, if it appeared that he had not solicited his discharge, but, was willing to continue in the service, the board has sent him back to the regiment, with orders to his officer to receive him. As to the new roads made through the highlands of Scotland, they are certainly of great use not only to that country, but to the whole |