Dams, where that is practicable. Increasingly it becomes evident that these deficiencies must not be permitted actually to develop. The problem in power production which they represent must be met by action in time.

The Bureau of Reclamation, which has been for many years the principal Federal agency in the construction of power projects in the West, feels its responsibility. Having constructed such projects as Boulder Dam and Grand Coulee, it is prepared to move promptly and effectively in meeting the power problem of the West in this emergency in connection with mineral developments and other industrial uses. At the same time, we feel that we can make a permanent contribution to the advancement and stabilization of the West through these multiple-purpose projects.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Perhaps this may be an appropriate place to ask you, Mr. Bashore, or Commissioner Olds, or Mr. Krug, whether any serious question has arisen with respect to the possibility of conflict between public and private power.

The question seems to be greeted with silence. Obviously that is a problem.

Commissioner Olds, do you care to say anything?

Mr. OLDS. I think that in the normal process of development that thing will be worked out, not, perhaps, through conflict but through, in certain instances, the acquisition of private systems by public-power systems, as in the Northwest; in other areas it will be worked out differently.

I think in general it can be affirmed that the policy of water-power development on a multiple-river-basin basis is going to be a policy worked out by the Federal Government, so that, just as Mr. Bashore has suggested, the power supply, insofar as it comes from the richly endowed streams of the western area, will, in the main, because of its multiple-purpose characteristics, involve Federal or governmental enterprise.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Of course, the significant expansion of power in recent years has been in the field of public power, such as the T. V. A. and Bonneville projects and the Reclamation Bureau projects. Naturally, however, there must be some solution of the possible controversy, if I may state it very conservatively, with those who call themselves private purveyors of power.

Mr. OLDS. Of course, the private purveyors of power are essentially public purveyors of power. A public utility is a public enterprise that, for the time being, is entrusted to private parties to operate. It is actually recognized by the Supreme Court as a governmental function which the Government may either delegate or perform itself. I do not think we can exactly define how, over the next 10 or 20 years, the relationship will be worked out. In certain regions the local people seem to prefer a transition to actual public operation of these plants; in other areas there is not at present apparent that same wish, that same inclination. But I think it is always a matter that should be worked out in terms of the wishes of the people in the region and the area and in terms of their best interests.

Senator O'MAHONEY. You may proceed, Mr. Bashore.

Mr. BASHORE. In making a list of potential multiple-purpose projects through which the deficiencies in power can be met before 1947, the Bureau of Reclamation has considered possible generators for Boulder Dam and Grand Coulee in addition to those scheduled for installation before the end of 1943.

Access has been had to reports of the Office of Indian Affairs of a potential project in the Pacific Northwest and to those of the Corps of Engineers, United States Army, which has conducted extensive investigations in the Arkansas Valley and elsewhere.

Steam plants are included where held desirable to balance proposed hydro installations in California, Utah, Colorado, and Arkansas.

The map we have prepared shows the status of the various Federal projects as follows:

Projects in operation, blank squares.

Projects under construction, in hatched squares.

Potential hydro projects, in black squares.

Hydro plants are shown in solid colors; steam plants are in checkered squares.

Senator O'MAHONEY. What are those Utah projects?

Mr. BASHORE. Potential so far as in Utah?

Senator O'MAHONEY. They appear to be potential, looking at the map from this distance.

Mr. LINEWEAVER. Potential are Echo Park, Green River, Rattlesnake Canyon on the Green River, and Dewey, and Dark Canyon on the Colorado-the main stem of the Colorado.

Mr. BASHORE. Black spots indicate existing Federal-reclamationproject areas.

The relative capacities of the existing and potential installations are indicated by the sizes of the blocks as follows:

The smallest blocks show capacities of 25,000 kilowatts or under. Mr. LINEWEAVER. 25,000; then, 25,000 to 100,000; the next one is 100,000 to 400,000; the next is 400,000 to 1,000,000; and then over a million, like Boulder and Grand Coulee.

Mr. BASHORE. The other sizes range upward to indicate the ultimate capacities of the largest power plants in the world, those at Grand Coulee and Boulder Dams.

Investigations have been practically completed on all projects which probably can be brought into operation by 1943. Investigations on most of the other projects listed can be completed in 3 to 12 months.

By years, the installed capacity in kilowatts which can be made available with adequate appropriations and high priorities in equipment and material appears to be as follows:

1943

1944.

1945.

1946

1947.

Total

Installed 673, 000 2, 011, 000 2,005, 500 2,947,000 895,000

9, 015, 500

Firm 576,000 1, 062, 000

795, 000

1, 163, 000 430, 000

4, 026, 000

Firm power is defined as output available continuously 24 hours a day.

In explanation of the symbols on the maps, I shall discuss briefly the relationship of these potential projects, including possible addi

tional installations at Grand Coulee and Boulder Dams. Further studies are being made; and, while I do not feel in a position to make suggestions as to the order in which the new projects should be scheduled for construction, recommendations can be made in the near future. But I do feel that from this list sections can be made which will assure sufficient power west of the Mississippi River to meet any demand that may be made for our all-out defense effort.

All of these projects serve purposes other than power. Their peacetime contributions to the development and stabilization of the West will forever make them worthy public undertakings. The list is subject to additions and subtractions as circumstances may determine. In the same order that I have discussed the deficiencies in power, I will point out what can be done to avert the consequences of neglecting to utilize the resources that are available. I direct your attention to the large map to which I have referred, as well as to the list of projects with their rated and firm capacities which I offer for the record.

POTENTIAL PROJECTS TO SUPPLY DEFICIENCIES

Beginning in the Northwest, I will take up each area separately: Pacific Northwest: The Columbia Basin and its tributaries and other streams in this area are veritable storehouses of unused low-cost power. In addition to the installation of all 18 big generators at Grand Coulee, 10 other projects in that area with installed capacities totaling more than 2,500,000 kilowatts are available if desired or needed for selection.

Southern Oregon: Projects on Rogue River and Scott River— northern California-will meet all presently anticipated needs.

Mr. KRUG. May I ask whether, in your judgment, it would be preferable to build new projects rather than put in new units at Coulee? Mr. BASHORE. That would depend, of course, on the locations of your deposits and plants. It might be desirable to have projects in other localities, whether the minerals or other factors are brought into the picture.

Of course, the Grand Coulee Dam is constructed. It is a matter of putting in another powerhouse and the units, and so far as time is concerned, it might be accomplished more quickly at Grand Coulee.

Mr. KRUG. You plan, however, to have a transmission grid that would permit delivery of Coulee and Bonneville power at a number of points throughout the Northwest, do you not?

Mr. BASHORE. The design of the transmission system is entirely in the hands of the Bonneville Administration, and they can advise you more definitely on that than I. The Bonneville Administration has the responsibility of marketing power at Bonneville and also at Grand Coulee, and it is their problem to design a grid for the proper distribution of the power.

Senator O'MAHONEY. When you refer to the tributaries in the Columbia Basin and to other streams in that area as a veritable storehouse of unused low-cost power, are you referring to new structures or existing structures?

Mr. BASHORE. Yes; that would be practical now. They are shown in the table which follows.