written to Detroit. This man is about to close up and let his organization go to pieces. If this is typical of what is going on we are in for it, not only in the West but all over the United States, and little business is going under, to the profit of the monopolist. I want to add with respect to that that that is not a situation which I regard as anybody's fault. It is a situation which has developed out of this hurry, and the best answer to the situation, I think, is some representation of these people which is not now adequately provided, so that insofar as it is possible the effects of this necessary hurry will be obviated. Senator O'MAHONEY. Is it not clear that in a war which is being waged ostensibly for the preservation of the democratic principle we should certainly avoid what is apparently a very pressing danger, that in preparing to become the arsenal of democracy, in order to preserve the democratic principle, we are likely to destroy the economic independence of a great proportion of our people? Mr. ARNOLD. I think so, Senator. Certainly every indication is that people who cannot get representation through their own efforts in this hurry are at a great disadvantage. Senator O'MAHONEY. So that actually the preservation of the independence of small businesses now existing is an integral part or ought to be regarded as an integral part of the war effort? Mr. ARNOLD. I think so. I want to say for O. P. M. that the instances which have come through our attempts to represent small business and which we have been able to investigate and to call to their attention have shown them to be most cooperative. Senator Murray, for example, called to our attention the imminent destruction of a manganese plant. We got the highest cooperation from the O. P. M. in keeping that plant in existence. About all we can do is to take up particular cases. However, the industrial structure is made up of a number of industries, and I personally am very much sold on the effectiveness of the case after case probe. Senator O'MAHONEY Have you made any arrangements with the War Department and the Navy Department so that this Division of Small Businesses would be apprised of commodity needs in order that some attempt might be made to analyze the capacity of small independent businesses to supply those needs? Mr. ARNOLD. We made no definite formalized arrangements. As fast as we can get to these particular instances we get economic data and have received, so far, full cooperation. Mr. COMER. In the case of cadmium, for example, they made all their information immediately available to us and were quite cooperative. So we are not encountering difficulty there. Senator O'MAHONEY. Are there any questions? (No response.) If not, I want to thank the Assistant Attorney General for his presentation. The committee appreciates the fine contribution that he has made. The hearings have been concluded at this point, so far as they have been planned. I should be very glad to have conferences with representatives of the Interior Department and other agencies and departments which have been represented here, with respect to their suggestions. The subcommittee will stand in recess until the call of the Chair. (Whereupon, at 12:50 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned subject to call of the Chair.) DEVELOPMENT OF MINERAL RESOURCES OF THE PUBLIC LANDS OF THE UNITED STATES THURSDAY, AUGUST 21, 1941 UNITED STATES SENATE, ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS, Denver, Colo. The subcommittee met at 10 a. m. pursuant to call, Thursday, August 21, 1941, in the courtroom of the United States Circuit Court of Appeals, in Denver, Colo. Senator Joseph C. O'Mahoney, chairman of the subcommittee, presiding. Present: Senators O'Mahoney (chairman of the subcommittee), Adams, Gurney, and Murdock. Senator O'MAHONEY (chairman of the subcommittee). The subcommittee will come to order. STATEMENT OF HON. JOSEPH C. O'MAHONEY, UNITED STATES SENATOR FROM WYOMING Senator O'MAHONEY. This subcommittee, consisting of Senator Adams, of Colorado; Senator Murdock, of Utah; Senator Gurney, of South Dakota; Senator Thomas, of Idaho; and the chairman, was appointed by virtue of Senate Resolution 53, which will be inserted in the record at the beginning of the hearing. SENATE RESOLUTION 53 Resolved, That the Committee on Public Lands and Surveys, or any duly authorized subcommittee thereof, is authorized and directed to make a full and complete study and investigation with respect to the development of the mineral resources (including oil and gas) of the public lands of the United States, and of the existing laws which relate to such development, with a view toward (1) providing for more effective development and utilization of such resources for the purposes of national defense, (2) fostering free competitive enterprise and the investment of private capital in the development of the mineral industry and the production of essential and useful minerals, and (3) conserving such mineral resources to the fullest extent which is consistent with their proper development and utilization. The committee shall report to the Senate, at the earliest practicable date, the results of its investigation, together with its recommendations, if any, for necessary legislation. For the purposes of this resolution, the committee, or any duly authorized subcommittee thereof, is authorized to hold such hearings, to sit and act at such times and places during the sessions, recesses, and adjourned periods of the Seventy-seventh and succeeding Congresses, to employ such clerical and other assistants, to require by subpena or otherwise the attendance of such witnesses and the production of such correspondence, books, papers, and documents, to administer such oaths, to take such testimony, and to make such expenditures, as it deems advisable. The cost of stenographic services to report such hearings shall not be in excess of 25 cents per hundred words. The expenses of the committee, which shall not exceed $5,000, shall be paid from contingent fund of the Senate upon vouchers approved by the chairman. Senator O'MAHONEY. This committee appointed by Senator Adams, chairman of the Committee on Public Lands and Surveys, has been instructed by the Senate to conduct a study of the mineral resources of the West, including metallurgical minerals, nonmetallic resources, oil and gas, and all other resources that might contribute to the development of our national economic defense. PURPOSES OF THE STUDY The study has been authorized for three principal purposes: First, with respect to the use of western resources, or resources in public land States for national defense. Secondly, for the establishment and fostering of free competitive and independent enterprise, and, third, for the purpose of conserving as well as utilizing the resources of the country. Conserving in the sense of preventing unnecessary waste. There has been a study conducted by the Military Affairs Committee of the strategic and critical minerals. Perhaps I might state, since there are so many in the audience this morning, they might be glad to know that these hearings were printed by the Military Affairs Committee and are now available in Washington through the secretary of that committee. The subcommittee of the Military Affairs Committee consists of Senator Elbert D. Thomas, of Utah; Senator Edwin C. Johnson, of Colorado; Senator H. H. Schwartz, of Wyoming; Senator Harley M. Kilgore, of West Virginia; Senator Warren F. Austin, of Vermont; Senator Styles Bridges, of New Hampshire; and Senator Rufus C. Holman, of Oregon, conducting this study, and the public material is available in Washington. The work of this committee, however, has not been confined to the study of strategic and critical minerals, but to find the minerals of which there was a deficiency in this country. We are concerned more with minerals with which we have an abundant supply. We are concerned with the development of such minerals. It may be appropriate to remark here that the national debt is approximately $51,000,000,000; a figure that defies imagination, and that inflation is threatened; the financial journals and bankers and businessmen talk about inflation; it is worth while to remember that production is probably the very best answer that can be had, because, when we produce, when we offer opportunities for labor and for work, we don't have a shortage of materials, it is because of rising prices. Perhaps this committee may have an opportunity to suggest something concerning the development of these minerals and our western resources that will answer this threat. The West has suffered in the past from two forms of absentee landlordism. The first has been the landowners or large economic organizations which have acquired control and ownership of large areas of our mineral resources, and the second, of course, is the Federal Government itself. The control of the Federal Government over our resources has been expanding during the past 30 years, and that leads to the decree of Government control, which in itself is not an inducement to free enterprise. Perhaps the witnesses and those gathered here may be able to suggest to us in Washington what can be done to answer these problems. This committee has been directed to develop this information in a constructive manner, and for that reason we have invited representatives of the Government to sit down with us, so that they may participate in the discussions that take place. The witnesses who come before the committee are requested and permitted, with others gathered here, to ask questions, so this may be a round-table discussion rather than an advisory proceeding. We are not here to criticize, we are not here to find fault, we are here, if possible, to develop ways and means of utilizing the tremendous resources which we know we have. Now there are a great many people who have requested an opportunity to be heard. Mr. Bradshaw, of the General Land Office, has been in close touch with these committee meetings and he notified me last night that there were enough individual applications to be heard to keep us a week if we conducted night sessions; obviously the committee cannot spend a great deal of time on this. Each Senator has business of pressing importance in his home State during the short lull in their affairs in Washington, and we are asking those who present themselves to be as brief as possible. Witnesses have come here, I know, from Wyoming this morning; I don't know whether any witnesses have come from Utah-do you know Senator Murdock? Senator MURDOCK. Yes. Senator O'MAHONEY. Senator Gurney, is there anyone here from South Dakota? Senator GURNEY. Not that I know of. Mr. BRADSHAW (C. R. Bradshaw, Chief, Minerals Division, General Land Office, Washington, D. C.). I think there are witnesses here from Montana and South Dakota. Senator O'MAHONEY. Well, the first witness this morning will be Governor Carr of Colorado. Governor Carr. STATEMENT OF HON. RALPH L. CARR, GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF COLORADO Governor CARR. Senator O'Mahoney and members of the subcommittee, I should be classed as a witness, because I am in the position of a man with a background of the problems which you are handling today. My knowledge of conditions which you are considering arose from boyhood days spent in mining camps of Colorado, and interests in the development of mining. My chief reason however for being here is to welcome to the West, Senator Adams, and you Senator O'Mahoney, both from the boulder country, and you belong in Colorado. Senator ADAMS. You will claim that? Governor CARR. If there is any credit, I will claim it. Senator O'MAHONEY. I claim right here we did educate Ralph Carr in the newspaper business. Governor CARR. Yes. I might be here in the roll of a newspaper reporter. I have talked with many of the men in the West in which you are dealing, and also have some knowledge I picked up under Joe's tutelage when I was trying to be a newspaper reporter until both of us have fallen by the wayside and got into politics. Both of |