with a request that it should import new rifle barrels to replace those which become worn out. Mr. A. McLEAN.-I have fired far more than 13,000 rounds out of an old shot-gun. Mr. WILKINSON.-But after so many rounds have been fired from a rifle it begins to become defective. Sir JOHN FORREST.-We have sent for more. Sir JOHN FORREST.-That is the price of a Martini-Enfield rifle. Mr. WILKINSON.-Does the Department propose to charge more for the magazine rifles? Sir JOHN FORREST.-They will be sold to members of rifle clubs at cost price. Mr. WILKINSON.-Then it seems to me that the Department is acting in a way that will kill the rifle clubs. Mr. FISHER. And deliberately doing so. Sir JOHN FORREST.-This charge has not killed the Victorian clubs. Mr. WILKINSON.-But the new scale has not yet been adopted. Sir JOHN FORREST.-The rifle clubs in Victoria have been in existence for some years. Mr. A. McLEAN.-I believe that I have shot that many kangaroos with an old gun. Mr. WILKINSON.-In my youth I shot many an opossum with an old flint piece, but I would have preferred a breech-loader. I am sure that the honorable member for Gippsland would not use a defective rifle when he could obtain a good one, more especially if he were competing with other expert shots. The experiences of the South African war have demonstrated that whilst men may be trained in military manœuvres in the course of a very few months, it requires months, or perhaps years, of practice to make a man an expert rifle shot. It was as rifle shots that the Boer forces excelled; they were able to use their rifles much better than were the majority of the forces which Great Britain sent against them, and should occasion arise Australia will find that her greatest source of strength lies in the skill with which her forces are able to use the weapons placed in their hands. Instead of the Department charging members of rifle clubs 40s. for a rifle, as is proposed under the new regulations, it should supply them at the lowest cost. I have been a member of a rifle club for something like fifteen years, and while the Defence Department was under the State control I was never called upon to pay more than 10s. for a rifle in Queensland. I had complete control over the Martini-Henry, which I purchased at that price, the only condition being that I should submit it for inspection at certain periods in order to satisfy the Department that I was keeping it in order. After a certain time I was per-manding will not stimulate this branch of mitted to do as I liked with the rifle, and it is still in my possession. The Department is now asking rifle clubs to pay 40s. each for rifles. Sir JOHN FORREST.-The charge for a magazine rifle is £3 15s. 9d. Mr. WILKINSON.-But the Depart ment proposes to charge members of rifle clubs only 40s Mr. WILKINSON.-I think the Minister will learn on inquiry that under the State law members of rifle clubs in Victoria were not called upon to pay £3 15s. 9d. each for their rifles. I feel satisfied that if such a price had been demanded we should not find something like 20,000 members of rifle clubs in Victoria. There are far more rifle clubs in Victoria than in any other State, and Queensland and New South Wales come next in the order named. The rifle club. movement received a great stimulus in this State, but even under existing conditions, a rifleman cannot go on a range without spending 4s. or 5s. There are certain entry fees and markers' charges to be paid which involve considerable outlay, and when men are patriotic enough to devote their time ard а considerable portion of their substance to the work of making themselves proficient rifle shots, they should receive a little more encouragement from the Department than they likely apparently to obtain from it under the present administration. There is an old saying "Hard words break no bones," and it appears that the converse is also true. The smooth words which we find in the report of the General Officer Com are the Defence Forces to as great an extent as would a little practical assistance. It is not for me to set my opinion against that of the expert administering the Department, but there are certain facts in connexion with our defences, so patent to us all, that we cannot shut our eyes to them. If we are to have our army established in accordance with what I believe to be the opinion of this House, and the country generally, we should begin our training in the schools. Cadets should be drilled until they leave school at the age of fourteen, and we should continue to train them until they are old enough to join the rifle clubs. We should drill and arm them, so that when they are old enough to join rifle clubs they will be able to do good work. If we adopt that system we shall obtain a force which, in a time of emergency, will be able to render a good account of itself. I am reminded that there is a desire to go to a division without delay, and, in view of that fact, I shall bring before the notice of the Minister in his own Department several matters which I proposed otherwise to put before the Committee. I desire, however, to request the Minister to explain the disparity which exists between the salaries paid to certain officers in one of the most important branches of our Defence Forces. I refer to the instructional staff, or, in other words, the drill instructors. I understood that with the creation of the Commonwealth we were to obtain uniformity. When the Prime Minister and the Attorney-General visited Brisbane to help the cause of Federation they said that, with the establishment of the Commonwealth, various savings would be effected, and that we should obtain uniformity in several directions. They declared that instead of having six tin-pot armies and six tinsel commanders we should have one Australian army and a General Officer Commanding. But, if I am rightly informed, uniformity so far as salaries are concerned does not exist. The drill instructors engaged in this work in New South Wales receive £208 per annum; in Western Australia, £196 per annum ; in Victoria, £177 per annum; in South Australia, £175 per annum; in Tasmania, £173 per annum; and in Queensland, £166 per annum. These men discharge correspond ing duties in each of the States, and they should receive equal remuneration. I have also a list which shows that preference is given, without exception, to instructors who have been in the Imperial Army. Mr. FISHER.-That is quite right from the point of view of the General Officer Commanding, but not from our standpoint. Mr. WILKINSON.-Let me remind the honorable member that the only Australian force which surrendered in South Africa was led by an Imperial officer. We did not find our men surrendering when they were led by their own officers, and I assert that we have men as competent to instruct our forces-men who have been trained on the battle fields of South Africa-as are any officers to be found in the Imperial Army. Mr. FISHER. If we will have an Imperial General Officer Commanding we must have these Imperial instructors. Mr. WILKINSON.--I should like to see the Department rely a little more on our own resources instead of going abroad for these men. Mr. FISHER.-1 agree with the honorable member. Mr. WILKINSON.-The figures which I have in my possession show that in every instance Imperial officers are receiving from £10 to £16 per annum more than is paid to Australian officers discharging similar duties. Sir JOHN FORREST.-That is in accordance with agreements made prior to the establishment of the Commonwealth. We have not engaged any Imperial officers since then. Mr. WILKINSON.-I inquired a few days ago why a certain classification had not been carried out, and it seemed to me that the reply I received was, to say the least, a little ambiguous. It was said that because certain men were not appointed at certain dates they were not given promotion. Some of these instructors joined the service years before those who are now receiving larger salaries. Some of them were in the service only two or three years, whilst others have been in the service nine or ten years and are getting less pay. Sir JOHN FORREST.-They were introduced before Federation. Mr. WILKINSON.-Why were not these men promoted so that they could receive the same pay as the Imperial non-commissioned officers? Why should they be placed at a disadvantage? However, I shall probably have an opportunity of discussing this matter with the Minister in his office some time during next week, and, at the present stage, will content myself with the observations I have made. Mr. HENRY WILLIS (Robertson).—I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without making some reference to the disbandment of Commonwealth volunteer corps. Some time since the matter was brought forward in the House, and it was supposed that the Minister would make some reference to Sir JOHN FORREST.-We now propose to make them a capitation allowance of 5s. per annum. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-That is a mere nothing; it is scarcely worth mentioning. Sir JOHN FORREST.-It means 5s. per man to the clubs. it when the Estimates were under considera- charge. Then, again, I should like to obtain tion. But so far he has said nothing to some information from the Minister as to justify the action taken in disbanding what he is prepared to do to provide the companies, some members of which have necessary targets for the practice of the been in the service upwards of twenty clubs. It is a considerable tax upon them to years. These men, it is said, have been provide themselves with targets. I brought converted into a mounted force. But it is this matter under the Minister's notice some impossible to convert companies of volun- time ago. teer infantry into a mounted force unless they have the means to provide themselves with horses. Some of these volunteers have been to the Transvaal and have covered themselves with glory. On return ing they were desirous of continuing as volunteers, but the Minister says he no longer requires their services. The volunteers throughout New South Wales feel very much aggrieved, and, judging from the observations made by the honorable member for Gippsland, it would appear that a similar feeling prevails throughout Victoria. I am aware in other States there is also discontent. The throwing of these men out of the service in consequence of the conversion, as it is called it is practically disbandment should receive some consideration, and it is only due to the Committee that some definite, explicit, and satisfactory explanation should be given before the Estimates are passed. If the valuable services of these experienced men are not to be used in volunteer forces, they ask for an opportunity to form civilian rifle clubs. Then the Minister interposes again and says, "On payment of a fee of £3 15s. for the cost of the rifle, you are permitted to form rifle clubs." In addition to that I suppose they would have to provide their own ammunition. Sir JOHN FORREST.—Oh, no; they receive 200 rounds free, and 200 at half-price. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-Half-price for ammunition to men who cannot afford to pay any price at all is a very heavy tax indeed, and prevents their carrying out the duties pertaining to rifle clubs to the fullest extent. When experienced officers returned from the South African war they publicly announced that it should be the policy of Australia to provide members of rifle clubs with free ammunition. Some of them went to the length of saying that the riflemen should have as much as they desired; but, of course, there must be a limit. I think that ammunition should be supplied free to all those who are desirous of forming themselves into civilian rifle clubs, and that the rifles also should be supplied to them free of we Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-Give them a free rifle and free ammunition, and they will not want any money whatever. The Minister is always very courteous when any application is made to him, but we can get nothing but courtesy out of him. Will he give the rifle clubs an opportunity of doing something for their proportion of £700,000 a year which are spending? We hear a great deal about the necessity for having good officers, and I am prepared to support the General Officer Commanding in this respect; but he should be given to understand that many of our citizen soldiers are unable to provide themselves with horses; that many members of our rifle clubs cannot afford the cost of rifles; and that they should not be expected to purchase the ammunition they use, even at half-price. These are matters of very great importance. My constituents are at fever heat over them. I trust that the Minister will make a few observations on the point. If time permitted, I believe that this discussion would continue for a whole sitting, judging from the interjections which have been made, and from the speeches with reference to this subject a few weeks ago. I have read in the newspapers that certain companies of the Australian Horse have also been practically disbanded, because they decline the conditions imposed under the new regulations. Sir JOHN FORREST.—I have not heard of it, and do not think it is so. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-I read that at Mudgee— Sir JOHN FORREST.-Most of them are going to keep their old title. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-Are they satisfied now? Sir JOHN FORREST.-So far as I know, yes. I think that some of them would rather remain as they are. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-Are they quite is the same old military dislike being dissatisfied? played towards rifle clubs. SirJOHN FORREST.-I should not like to say that, but they are content to fall in with the new arrangements. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-Some of the men sent in their resignations, I understand. Sir JOHN FORREST.-I heard nothing about that. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-It was so stated in the newspapers. If the Minister will give a denial to the report I shall be satisfied. Sir JOHN FORREST.-I have not seen it. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-The Minister ought to know whether the company of the Australian Horse at Mudgee has resigned because the members of it were dissatisfied to continue in the service under the regulations recently issued. Sir JOHN FORREST.-We have heard nothing of it in the office. Mr. HENRY WILLIS.-I am glad to learn that the men are now satisfied. I should like the Minister to answer the following questions :-First, is he in favour of giving members of the rifle clubs free rifles; secondly, will he provide them with targets; thirdly, will he forego the charge of half-price for ammunition? These are only reasonable requests in the interests of the Commonwealth. We may save hundreds of thousands of pounds hereafter if the Department will properly equip these men. I hope the answer to these questions will be in the affirmative. Sir JOHN FORREST. It would cost £250,000. Mr. JOSEPH COOK (Parramatta).—I entirely subscribe to the suggestion of the honorable member for Robertson as to the need for greater liberality in the treatment of rifle clubs. We did expect, when the Federal Forces had been re-organized, to find the rifle clubs put upon a very much more liberal footing. It will be a matter of keen regret throughout the States that such is not the case, and that men are still to be "cribbed, cabined, and confined" in their efforts to make themselves thoroughly good rifle shots, and so provide us with a mobile force in case of any peril to the Empire. We did expect that when the new regulations were issued they would be found to contain some such provisions as have been suggested by the honorable member for Robertson. It seems, however, that there Sir JOHN FORREST.-What is suggested would cost such a lot of money—over £200,000. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-I do not care what the cost would be. Sir JOHN FORREST.-We do. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-The Commonwealth is prepared to bear the cost of thoroughly equipping the members of rifle clubs with up-to-date rifles. Sir JOHN FORREST.-What does the honorable member think the States would say? Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-The people of the Commonwealth will not shirk any expense in that direction. The right honorable gentleman will not find any objection in any part of Australia to the complete equipment of the forces we have established. Sir JOHN FORREST.-We hear objections in every direction from the States. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-The right honorable gentleman must know that it is better we should have no force at all than that we should have a force which is not equipped in such a way as to render it an efficient fighting force in case of need. Sir JOHN FORREST. Give us a little time. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-How much time does the right honorable gentleman require? He has had three years already. How much time does he consider sufficient? Sir JOHN FORREST.-Honorable members have been cutting down the vote all that time. Mr. FISHER. It will bear cutting down a little yet. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-How much time does the right honorable gentleman require to thoroughly equip the various corps? Mr. WATSON.-The right honorable gentleman should cut a little off the staffs and give it to the rifle clubs. Sir JOHN FORREST.-That would not make them very fat. Mr. WATSON.-It would help. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-As to the cutting down, I desire to say that I, for one, will do no more cutting down. I think we have cut into the bone. Mr. WATSON. Some branches are pretty fat still. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-If we are to have a thoroughly effective defence, I believe we can hardly expect to secure it for much less than the expenditure at present proposed. That is the conclusion to which I have arrived upon these matters without, of course, any expert knowledge. I am the more determined not to go in for further cutting when I see the use which has been made of the cutting down which has already been effected by honorable members. Mr. WATSON.--The Department is not spending the money in the proper direction. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-Invariably the effects of the cutting down have fallen upon the rank and file of the force. Sir JOHN FORREST.—No, no. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-Upon the very men for whose interests honorable members have always manifested the deepest concern. They have had to bear the brunt of any cutting proposal. We have organized and re-organized our army upon very many occasions, and the net result of each re-organizing scheme has been to take something more from the volunteer forces of the Commonwealth. Mr. FISHER. Who is to blame for that? Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-The honorable member for Wide Bay for one. Mr. FISHER. The honorable member says that he will not give it back to them. He says he will not cut down the that I told the Committee exactly what I am telling honorable members now, and that was that in my experience the cutting always fell on the wrong shoulders. Mr. WATSON.-Did we not get the assurance of the Minister in the matter? Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-I speak now of State experience as well as of Commonwealth experience. I remember that on two occasions lump sums were cut off the Defence Estimates submitted in the New South Wales Parliament, and that invariably the reductions were passed on to the lower ranks of the service. I desire some guarantee, before I take part in any more cutting, that that will not be done again. I wish to say that, as the result of all the organization and reorganization, we find the citizen soldier getting further and further into the rear. Sir JOHN FORREST.-Not at all. That is not true. The honorable member cannot have read the report of the General Officer Commanding. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-I shall be able to show the right honorable gentleman whether the statement is correct or not. It has been understood that the policy of the Commonwealth was to be one of encouragement to the citizen soldier, and that our future Australian defence was to be built upon a citizen basis. I desire to point out that, as the net result of the reorganization schemes we have had from time to time, dating as far back as 1892 in New South Wales, the gunner and private who used to get £12 a year is now going to receive £6 8s. The lieutenant, who used to receive £30, is now to receive £12 under the new scheme. The lieutenant who used to receive £25 is now to receive £12. Whereas the captain used to receive £40, he is now to receive only £18. The major who used to receive £50 is now to receive only £24, and the lieut.-colonel who use to receive £60 is now to receive only £28. I say that this is not encouraging the citizen soldiery. It must have the very opposite effect. Mr. WATKINS.-The permanent men have not been cut down in that way. Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-This kind of thing is taking the very heart out of our citizen soldiers, and is tending to destroy all that feeling of loyalty which should be the basis of any effective defence of the Commonwealth. The members of the forces are wondering when it is going to end, and when this constant nagging at |