in finding the means. He again ftated a propofition of this fort, on our part, as being abfolutely neceffary to prove that the government was not about entering into a treaty with perfons of a temper hoftile to it. Mr. Gerry not well hearing Mr. Talleyrand, who spoke low, afked him to explain himself with refpect to the propofition which he had alluded to, fuppofing it to be a new one: and he anfwered that one of them was fecrecy; but that there were befides various ways which might eafily be fuggefted to cover the loan, as an immediate one, by limiting the time of advancing it to diftant inftalments. Mr. Gerry obferved, that Dutrimond had fuggefted that a loan was proposed to be made, payable after the war, and in fupplies to St. Domingo. Mr. Talleyrand fignified, that that might be one of the means ufed; and faid, that if we were only fincere in our wish, it would be eafy to bring about the end. General Marshall told Mr. Talleyrand, that if the Minifters of the United States had manifefted any unwillingness to take all proper measures to reconcile the two Republics, or any indifference on the fubject, they had very badly reprefented the feelings and wishes of their government; that the government of the United States was moft fincerely defirous of preferving the friendship of France, and had, in his opinion, unequivocally manifeft.. ed that defire, by having deputed us under the extraordinary circumftances attending our miffion, and by having fo long patiently borne the immenfe lofs of property which had been fuftained; that we had endea. voured, according to the best of our judgment, to reprefent truly this difpofition of our government; but that we understood that France would confider nothing as an evidence of friendship, but an act which would tranfcend and violate our powers, and at the fame time operate the most ferious injury to our country; that neutrality, in the prefent war, was of the laft importance to the United States, and they had refolved faithfully to maintain it; that they had committed no act voluntarily, which was a breach of it; and could do nothing in fecret, which, if known, would juftly arrange them among the belligerent powers; that in the prefent ftate of things, if America was actually leagued with France in the war, fhe would only be required to furnish money; that we had neither fhips of war or men to be employed in it, and could confequently, as a belligerent power, only be asked for money; that, therefore, to furnish money, was, in fact, to make war; which we could by no means confent to do; and which would abfolutely tranfcend our powers; being an act altogether without the view and contemplation of our government, when our miffion was decided on: that with refpect to fupplies to St. Domingo, no doubt could be entertained that our merchants would furwish them very abundantly, if France would permit the commerce; and a loan really payable after the clofe of the war, might then be negociated. Mr. Talleyrand again marked the diftinction between filence of inftructions and an exprefs prohibition; and again infifted on the neceffity of our proving, by fome means which we must offer, our friendship for the republic. He faid, he muft exact from us, on the part of his government, fome propofition of this fort; that to prove our friendship, there must be fome immediate aid, or fomething which might avail them; that the principles of reciprocity would require it. General Pinckney and General Marshall understood him, by this expreffion, to allude to the loan for. merly made by France to the United States. Mr. Gerry, at the time,. thought he alluded to the treaty to be made; and faid, all treaties fhould

be founded in reciprocity: and then asked him, whether a loan was the ultimatum of this government. Mr. Talleyrand did not give a direct anfwer to the question: he said, as he was understood, that the government infifted on fome act which would demonftrate our friendly difpofition towards, and our good wishes for the Republic; this once done, he faid, the adjuftment of complaints would be eafy; that would be matter of enquiry; and if France had done us wrong, it would be repaired. But that if this was refused, it would increase the distance and coldness between the two Republics. The converfation continued in this style until four o'clock, when we took our leave, and agreed to meet in the evening.

In the courfe of it, and in reply to fome obfervations of Mr. Talleyrand, refpecting the proofs of friendship required by France, General Pinckney obferved, that our being here was a mark of the friendly difpofition of our government, and that while we were here, the government had paffed a decree for feizing neutral veffels having on board any article coming out of England; which in its operation would fubject to capture all our property on the ocean. Mr. Talleyrand replied, that this was not particular to us, but was common to all the neutral powers. At another time, in answer to his demand of fome mark of our friendship, General Marshall obferved, that we confidered the mutual interests of the two nations as requiring peace and friendship; and we relied on finding fufficient motives in the intereft of France, to preserve that friendfhip; without forcing us to an act which tranfcended our powers, and would be fo injurious to our country. As we were taking our leave, Mr. Talleyrand again noticed our not vifiting him and faid, that he conceived our not having had an audience from the Directory ought not to have prevented it. General Marshall told him, that our feeing the Directory, or not, was an object of no fort of concern to us; that we were perfectly indifferent with regard to it; but that we conceived that until our public character was in fome degree recognized, and we were treated as the minifters and representatives of our government, we could not take upon ourselves to act as minifters; because by doing fo, we might subject ourselves to fome injurious circumstance to which we could not fubmit. He faid that was very true; but that we might fee him as private individuals; and discuss the objects of difference between us. We requested of Mr. Talleyrand another interview, at fuch hour as might be convenient to him, on the fixth instant. He answered, that he would receive us at half paft eleven ; at which hour we attended him.

Immediately after our arrival at his office, we were introduced to the minifter; and General Pinckney stated, that we had confidered, with the most serious attention, the converfation we had had the honor of holding with him a few days paft: that the propofitions he had fuggefted, appeared to us to be fubftantially the fame with those which had been made by Mr. X. by Mr. Y. and alfo to Mr. Gerry, with an intention that they should be communicated to his colleagues; that we confidered it as a propofition, that the United States fhould furnish aid to France, to be used during the present war: that though it was unusual to disclose inftructions, yet we would declare to him, that in addition to its being a measure amounting to a declaration of war against Great Britain, we were exprefsly forbidden by our inftructions to take such a itep.

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89).

The Minifter faid, in the tone of a queftion, he fuppofed our inftructions were, to do nothing which would amount to a departure from our neutrality.

General Pinckney faid, that we were fo inftructed, and that they were ftill more particular. Mr. Talleyrand then proceeded to argue, that it would be no departure from neutrality, to ftipulate a loan payable after the war: and fpoke of it clearly as admitting of application to immediate ufe. He faid a good deal of the fecrecy with which the tranfaction might be cloathed; and obferved further, that a loan payable after the war would be a proof of our faithful obfervance of the duties of neutrality; fince it would be confidered as proving that we had rejected propofitions for an immediate loan. General Marshall replied, that we thought differently; that in our opinion, any act, on the part of the American government, on which one of the belligerent powers could raife money for immediate ufe, would be furnishing aid to that power, and would be taking part in the war. It would be, in fact, to take the only part which, in the exifting ftate of things, America could take. This was our deliberate opinion; and in addition to it, we confidered our inftructions as conclufive on this point.

He observed, that we had claims on the French government, for property taken from American citizens. Some of thofe claims were probably juft. He asked, if they were acknowledged by France, whether we could not give a credit as to the payment-fay for two years? We anfwered that we could. He then infifted that it was precisely the fame thing; that by fuch an act, we should confent to leave in the hands of France, funds to which our citizens were entitled, and which might be ufed in the profecution of the war. General Pinckney faid there was a difference between the cafes; that fuch prizes were now actually in the power of the French, without our confent; we could not prevent it or get them out; but the granting or not granting a loan was in our own power. He repeated his obfervation; and General Marshall faid, that the property for which money w was due to American citizens from the French government, was taken into the poffeffion of that government, without any co-operation on the part of the United States. No act of any fort was performed by our government, which in any degree contributed to place thofe funds in the hands of France, nor was there any confent towards it; but in the cafe propofed, the act would be the act of the government; the government would itfelf place funds in the hands of France, and thereby furnish means which might be employed in the profecution of the war. This was the diftinction between the cafes, and in a question of neutrality, it appeared to us to be all important.-The Minifter then proceeded to state the cafe of our affuming the debt of our citizens, and of paying the money in that manner; but General Pinckney and Mr. Gerry told him we were pofitively forbidden to affume the debt to our own citizens, even if we were to pay the money directly to them. He feemed furprized at this. General Pinckney obferved, that contrary to usage, we had deemed it proper, in the exifting ftate of things, to ftate candidly our powers to him, that he might know certainly that we could not fecretly, or under any diguife whatever, make a loan which might be ufed iuring the war. Mr. Talleyrand faid, he muft refume his pofition, that there was a difference, which he must infift upon, between a loan payable immediately, and a loan payable in

M

future; and he still infifted there was no difference between a loan pay. able in future, and a credit for the money which might be due to our citizens. Mr. Gerry obferved, that his colleagues had justly stated the diftinction between the debt which will be due to the citizens of the United States from France, in cafe of her recognizing the claims which we fhall make in their behalf, and a debt which might arife from a loan by the government of the United States to that of France, during the war. The one is the result of an arrest of their property without their confent; the other would be a voluntary act of the government of the United States, and a breach of their neutrality. There is an additional objection to the latter: if the United States fhould make fuch a loan, it would give too much reafon to fuppofe that their government had confented, in a collufive manner, to the capture of the veffels of their citizens, and had thus been furnishing France with fupplies to carry on the war. Our inftructions are exprefs, not to ftipulate for any aids to France, either directly or indirectly, during the war. With refpect to a fecret ftipulation, a loan cannot be made without an act of the legiflature but if the Executive were adequate to it, we have had an instance of an injunction of fecrecy on members of the Senate, on an important fabject, which one of the members thought himfelf warranted in publihing in the newspapers; and of frequent inftances of fecrets which have otherwife efcaped: fecrecy, in this inftance, might therefore be confidered, if the meafure was in itself admiffable, as being impracticable. General Marshall obferved, that we had confidered the fubject with great folicitude, and were decidedly of opinion, that we could not, under any form, make a loan which could be used during the war; that we could not tell what our government would do, if on the fpot; but were perfectly clear, that without additional orders, we could not do what France requested. Mr. Gerry obferved, that the government and nation of the United States, as well as ourselves, were earnestly folicitous to reftore friendship between the two republics; that as General Marthail had stated, we could not fay what our government would do, if on the fpot; but if this propofition met the wishes of the government of France, General Marthall and himself had agreed immediately to embark for the United States, and lay before our government the existing ftate of things here, as it respected our nation, to enable them to determine whether any, and what other measures on their part were neceffary. Mr. Talleyrand made no obfervation on this propofition: but enquired whether we expected foon to receive orders. Mr. Gerry mentioned an answer he had received to a letter fent by him in November; and General Marshall stated, that our first dispatches were fent on board two veffels at Amfterdam, on the 28th of November; from which Mr. Talleyrand could form as juft an idea as we could, when an anfwer might be expected: but he did not think it probable one would arrive before a month to come. General Marshall told him, we knew that our government had not received our dispatches on the 8th of January; and we could not tell when they might be received. He asked whether our intelligence came through England? General Marfhall antwered that it did not; and General Pinckney faid, that American papers as late as the 8th of January mentioned the fact.

There was fome converfation about the time when thefe inftructions might be expected; and General Marshall fuggefted a doubt whether our

any

government might give any inftructions. He asked, with fome furprize, whether we had not written for inftructions? and we answered, that we had not: and Mr. Gerry faid that we had stated facts to our government, and conceived that nothing more was neceflary. General Pinckney observed, that the government knowing the facts, would do what was proper; and that our applying or not applying for inftructions would not alter their conduct. Mr. Talleyrand then enquired whether we had not fent one to the United States. General Pinckney faid no: and Mr. Gerry added, that foon after our arrival we had made propofitions to fend one of our number, which were not accepted. And General Marshall further added, that those who had communicated with us, had told us wer fould be ordered out of France immediately; and we had fuppofed that. we fhould be ordered out before our letters could reach the government. Mr. Gerry then obferved, that the government of France muft judge for itself, but that it appeared to him, that a treaty on liberal principles, fuch as thofe on which the treaty of commerce between the two nations was first established, would be infinitely more advantageous to. France than the trifling advantages fhe could derive from a loan. Such a treaty would produce a friendship and attachment on the part of the United States to France, which would be folid and permanent, and produce benefits far fuperior to those of a loan, if we had powers to make it. To this obfervation Mr. Talleyrand made no reply. We parted without any fentiment delivered by the Minifter on the fubject of our going home to confult our government.

As we were taking our leave of Mr. Talleyrand, we told him that two of us would return immediately to receive the inftructions of our government, if that would be agreeable to the Directory: if it was not, we would wait fome time, in the expectation of receiving inftructions.

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