-EXCHEQUER BILLS.] The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,

tion for going into a Committee of Supply, Lord Folkestone said, that according to the ancient usage of the House, he took that opportunity of pointing out a recent alteration, by which the public were aggrieved; he meant the alteration which had lately taken place in the mode of printing the Votes of that House. He had neglected to refer to it at the time of the renewal of the sessional orders, and he took the present as the most proper remaining opportunity for doing so. The House would recollect, that in the last session a change was made in the manner of publishing the votes, with a view to the convenience of members; and, on the whole, that change was beneficial. But there was one part of that arrangement which was injurious to the public; and that was the circumstance, that no petitions were printed in the votes, except such as were expressly ordered to be printed by a specific vote, which were published in an appendix. He was aware that a great number of petitions had been presented in the last session, and that the accumulation of these documents had been the chief cause of the extent to which the votes had been swelled, and the consequent delay which occurred in the publication of them. But he thought it a matter of respect which the House owed to its constituents and to the people, to publish those complaints which were transmitted to it, and delay might be equally avoided by the publication of these petitions, as a matter of course, in the appendix, as the select ones now were. It was true, that in every instance in which any member had moved that a petition be printed, no objection had been made; but the very fact, that a question was necessary previous to the printing, made an opening for objections; and it was a fair matter of complaint, on the part of the people, that their requests, when received by the House were not printed as a matter of course. The Votes of the House were the only regular way in which its proceedings were made public; and the old votes seemed to be adapted to that purpose. He had not made up his mind to submit any motion to the House: but he had thought fit to put them on their guard against the consequence of a measure which might lead to an imputation, that they did not attend to the prayers of the people.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-NAVY ESTI

Sir George Warrender rose to move the Navy Estimates. He said there was this year a small increase in the supply for this branch of the public service. The committee of finance had foreseen the possibility of such an increase. The addition this year was 1,000 sailors and 1,000 marines. The whole amount of men now was 20,000 sailors and marines. The cause of this small increase was the necessity of keeping up an establishment at St. Helena, and the state of South America. The rate of pay was somewhat higher in peace than war, because the proportion of able seamen to landmen was greater in time of peace, in order that the fleet might be more speedily put on a good footing, in case of emergency. The charge of ordnance was somewhat increased. A ship which in time of war had a complement of 480 men, in peace had but 300, although the number of guns remained the same. The charge for ordnance was therefore increased in the proportion of from four to seven shillings per man per month. He then moved, 1. "That 20,000 men be employed for the sea service for 13 months, from the 1st of January, 1818, including 6,000 royal marines. 2. That 611,000l. be granted for wages of the said 20,000 men, at the rate of 21. 7s. per man per month. 3. That 520,000l. be granted for victuals for the said 20,000 men, at the rate of 21. per man per month. 4. That 559,000l. be granted for the wear and tear of the ships in which the said 20,000 men are to serve, at the rate of 21. 3s. per man per month. 5. That 91,000l. be granted for ordnance for sea service on board the ships in which the said 20,000 men are to serve, at the rate of 7s. per man per month."-The said motions were agreed

to.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had now to propose a vote of Exchequer bills to provide for other Exchequer bills which were now outstanding. He should take this opportunity to give a brief view of the state of the unfunded debt. At an early period in the last session, 24 millions were issued, which were now outstanding. This sum he now proposed to provide for. After that another sum of 18 millions was issued, which was outstanding, which he did not now intend to replace. There was in the last session another sum of

nine millions issued, and six millions had | been issued in 1816. For both these sums he intended to propose to provide, and these votes, and the usual annual taxes (or "land and malt") were the only ones which he intended to propose at this early period of the session. The amount of Exchequer bills now outstanding was smaller than had been anticipated, not only by some gentlemen on the other side of the House, but even than that which was anticipated in a resolution proposed by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Charles Grant, jun.), who had assumed that on the 5th of January, 1818, the amount outstanding might be 60 millions.* It was in fact scarcely 57 millions and a half. At the same time, in 1817, the amount was 44,400,000l.; so that there was an increase of a little more than 12 millions. This was all that was added to the debt, though there were variations in other branches of the unfunded debt, the accounts of which had not yet been made up. The reduction of the unfunded debt amounted to 19 millions of stock, which was equal, at the present prices, to 15 millions in money; so that instead of any addition being made to the debt in this year, on the total amount of funded and unfunded, there was a diminution of about three millions. He then moved, 1. "That 24,000,000l., be granted to his majesty, to pay off and discharge Exchequer bills made out by virtue of an Act of the 57th of his majesty, for raising 24,000,000l., by Exchequer bills for the year 1817, outstanding and unprovided for. 2. That 9,000,000l., be granted to pay off Exchequer bills made out by virtue of an act of the 57th of his majesty, for raising 9,000,000l. by Exchequer bills, for the year 1817, outstanding and unprovided for. 3. That 6,000,000l., be granted to pay off Exchequer bills made out by virtue of an act of the 56th of his majesty, for empowering the governor and company of the bank of England to advance 6,000,000l. towards the supply for the service of the year 1816, outstanding and unprovided for."

Mr. Curwen said, he should heartily rejoice if, when the accounts were laid before the House, the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer should not be found to be fallacious. From the best consideration he had been able to give the estimates, there had been a deficiency in

* See Vol. 36, p. 1282. ·

Ireland of five millions (the receipts being six millions-the expenditure eleven millions), and in England of nine millions, making in all fourteen millions.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that comparing the actual state of the debt at the beginning of each year, the hon. gentleman, than whom no one was more competent to inquire into this subject, would see, when the accounts were presented, that there was a decrease in the debt of near three millions.

Mr. Tierney wished to know how the hon. gentleman, the colleague in office of the chancellor of the exchequer, was mistaken in the quantity of Exchequer bills which would be outstanding at the time of the new year. As to the assertion that 15 millions of the national debt had been reduced, it was impossible, as so much money had not been in the hands of the commissioners. He did not blame the chancellor of the exchequer for taking the first opportunity of sounding a kind of bugle, as to the prosperous state of the country, and before the accounts were presented there would be little possibility of contradicting him.

Mr. C. Grant jun. said, that he had stated in his Resolutions, that the utmost amount of Exchequer bills would be 60 millions: he had taken it as unfavourably as possible to the cause which he had argued, but he had guarded against the possibility of an inference that the sum must necessarily be so high.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that he had given a short and necessarily superficial view of the state of the debt; but if he had not done so, no one would have been more ready to blame him than the right hon. gentleman. He admitted that a part of the services of last year were as yet unperformed, and that consequently so large an amount of Exchequer bills was not issued as the Treasury was enabled to issue. But he deemed it perfectly fair to take a comparison of the amount of the debt on the same day in each year.

Mr. Tierney requested to know what was the amount of out-standing Exchequer bills on account of the deficiencies of the revenue.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he did not know the exact amount; but it did not exceed a million.

The Resolutions were agreed to.

pointed, with a view to a remedy, would be little disposed to look to the real remedy, economy; a word which at the beginning of this session, for the first time, had been never mentioned by the king's ministers-economy in the public expenditure. It was the weight on the industry of the country, to pay debts contracted in the prosecution of the war, which could not be borne, and the remedy was, to reduce all salaries and pensions which augmented this burthen unnecessarily to reduce the wages of overpaid labour, or rather no labour, while the labour of the people was so wretchedly underpaid. Such a measure would have more effect in relieving the labouring classes than all the expedients which the committee could suggest. It was an immense taxation which dried up the resources of the country, and he was persuaded that it was of little consequence out of the pockets of what class the taxes were raised,-whether of the consumers, or of the richer classes, in the shape of income tax If it was taken out of the rich man's pocket, he was only the less able to employ the labourer. He should only prefer that tax which was least oppressive in the collection, that is to say, which returned the largest proportion to the public treasury of that which was taken out of the pockets of the contributors. It was indifferent to him whether it was on salt, or leather, or other articles, or on income. That tax was best which produced most with least expense, with one exception-the tax on stamps on law proceedings, which was detestable on this ground, that a man was made to pay by it for that which he paid all other taxes in order to be entitled to. It was for personal protection-in short, for safety and liberty, that every man paid taxes according to his means; and it was a wicked and a cruel proceeding in any government to endeavour to shut out many from the benefit of that protection, by creating this artificial and unequal expense. He hoped the delusion, as to the state of the country, would not last for ever. They were now told the country was in a mending condition, and as a proof of it, the wages of labourers were, as the hon. gentleman said, in some instances, nine-pence a day, and the families were supported out of parish funds. At such a time was it that economy had Dever once been mentioned by ministers. As for the relief afforded by the parish,

those who knew what it was, knew also that men would use all possible exertions before they were compelled to depend upon it. With regard to the observation which he had often heard, that the poorrates held out a great encouragement to idleness by the comforts which they afforded, and that many people were anxious to participate of those comforts, he firmly believed the observation was unfounded, and that the mass of the people contemplated it as one of the greatest calamities to be reduced to the necessity of having recourse to the poor-rates. The hon. baronet concluded with stating that he would not oppose the motion.

Lord Castlereagh expressed his belief that whatever difference of opinion might exist as to the necessity which had called for such a quantity of public expense for some years back, or as to the degree of practical economy which ought to be adopted, there could not be much difference as to the propriety of considering the best means of administering the poorlaws. He apprehended, therefore, that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Curwen) was mistaken in supposing that the country was indifferent about the inquiry which had already been instituted by the House upon this subject, and which it was proposed by the present motion to continue. On the contrary, he had reason to believe that great good had resulted from the report of the former committee (even if no legislative measure should follow), in consequence of the facts which it disclosed, and the information which it communicated to the country with regard to the administration of the sums collected under the poor laws. In that committee he had himself occasionally attended, and he never witnessed any such diverging of opinion as the hon. gentleman had stated; for instead of the 39 members of that committee differing from each other, and from the chairman, the fact was, that all` the members completely concurred upon certain important radical points, and on these points, therefore, he would recommend that some legislative measure should at once be brought forward; for he was an advocate for the practical amendment and gradual amelioration of this system, being convinced that nothing like that subversion could be entertained by parliament which the hon. gentleman appeared to recommend; for the system of the poor laws was interwoven with the institutions of the country, and the repeal

Sir F. Burdett said, he had not disapproved of investigation, but had stated what he would restate, that no investigation or discussion would ever afford any relief, without such a reduction of the establishments of the government, and such a rigid economy in the expenditure, as would reduce the enormous taxation of the country to a scale compatible with the fair employment of the industrious population, and their full enjoyment of the fruits of their industry.

Mr. Calcraft said, he had not very sanguine expectations from the labours of the committee. The report, he would admit, had done some good, but no effectual relief could be expected without the powerful co-operation of government. Two points of great importance and considerable nicety would deserve the attention of the committee. The one was, whether personal and funded property should not be subjected to poor-rates as well as landed property. The other was, whether the petty sessions might not take consideration of many subjects at present devolved upon the quarter sessions.

The motion was agreed to, and a committee consisting of the following members appointed, viz. Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr. Curwen, lord Castlereagh, Mr. Frankland Lewis, Mr. Bathurst, sir T. Baring, Mr. Brand, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Wood, Mr. Morton Pitt, Mr. Legh Keck, Mr. Lockhart, Mr. Dickinson, lord Lascelles, Mr. Ashurst, sir James Shaw, lord W. Bentinck, Mr. Fitzhugh, lord Stanley, sir John Simeon, Mr. Estcourt, Mr. Thomas Courtenay, Mr. Robert Smith, Mr. Davies Gilbert, Mr. Holford, Mr. Cartwright, sir E. Brydges, sir T. Acland, Mr. Morritt, Mr. C. Dundas, Mr. H. Sumner, lord Cranborne, Mr. Littleton, Mr. Osborne, sir W. Rowley, Mr. C. Grant, jun., and Mr. Shaw Lefevre.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 5.

- SECRET COMMITTEE ON THE STATE
OF THE COUNTRY BALLOTTED FOR.]
The House proceeded to ballot for a
Committee to examine the Secret Papers.

bers, viz. The lord chancellor, the earl of Harrowby, the duke of Montrose, the earl of Liverpool, marquis Camden, marquis of Lansdowne, earl Fitwilliam, the earl of Powis, viscount Sidmouth, lord Grenville, and lord Redesdale.

Earl Grosvenor took that opportunity of making a few observations on what had passed the other evening when a noble marquis not now in his place, had stated that it was desirable for the committee to have power to send for persons, papers, and records. His noble friend had been answered, that such a power was inconsistent with the practice of the House. He thought, however, that in a case like the present, the power recommended by the noble marquis ought to have been given, though it might accord with the general practice of the House. On the present occasion their lordships would, in his opinion, be perfectly justified in departing from their usual course, and enabling the committee at once to call for persons, papers, and records, without waiting until the chairman of the committee might apply to the House for farther information, or new evidence. But such a power it seemed, would be contrary to precedent, and the noble secretary of state for the home department had referred to the proceeding of 1801, as a case in point. Now, the proceedings of 1801 was on a report communicated to their lordships from the House of Commons. mons. It was not, then, a measure instituted on a communication to their lordships from the throne, nor did it resemble a committee appointed in consequence of a measure originating among themselves. The example which the noble viscount had referred to was evidently of no authority; but if the precedent were complete, still he should consider himself fully justified in calling on their lordships to go out of their way, and agree to the resolution which he was about to propose. Those who were, like himself, convinced that there had been no occasion for depriving the people of this country of the most important of their rights, no ground for the alarm spread by ministers, and that the ordinary course of law would have been perfectly sufficient for the repression of any disorders or offences which might have existed, would perhaps not be surprised that ministers avoided a full investigation. That their pretences for suspending the Habeas Corpus act