When the Federal law applies, a license would be required for the purchase of any firearms or ammunition after September 1, 1970. After September 1, 1971, a license would be necessary for the possession or use of any firearm or ammunition, except one borrowed temporarily for a hunting or other sport shooting purpose. Youngsters would still be able to use firearms, although they would not be able to purchase or own them in their own names.

The bill has no application to antique firearms, manufactured before 1898.

Absolutely no fees are required from any gun owner or user under the bill. The cost of the measure -an anti-crime measure-will be borne by the public, as is the cost of other Federal anticrime legislation.

Good gun laws need not be antigun to be anticrime. I have worked unstintingly to produce legislation that will be most effective against the criminal use of firearms at minimal inconvenience to sportsmen and honest citizens who want to own and use guns. I believe I have struck the necessary balance in S. 977, and I urge the chairman and the subcommittee to report it favorably to the full judiciary and the Senate.

Now, Mr. Chairman, before closing, I would like to bring to the attention of this committee for its consideration an intriguing idea that has been suggested as an alternative to the legislation I have proposed and others. And that is the use of a national identification card or a national licensing permit card system.

The idea is that identification cards would be issued to qualified persons-persons not under disabilities like those described in my bills-by the Federal Government like licenses. A person holding one of these cards would be entitled to purchase firearms and ammunition in any State.

On its face, I think this idea has merit. It achieves the objective of limiting access to firearms to deny them to those under disability, while potentially requiring less inconvenience to the individual purchaser who desires to make purchases in several different States which may have separate licensing process.

I believe that this alternative may be more acceptable to some opponents of the licensing system who fear the burden of multiple State licensing. It appears to me to serve the same goals that I have been seeking. I think it is at least worth consideration by your subcommittee. Now, one or two words about the areas of obscenity.

Chairman DODD. Before you go into that, I would like to ask a question. Are you familiar with S. 2433?

Senator TYDINGS. No. Would you get me a copy?

Chairman DODD. That is the bill I introduced, the certification bill. I asked the question because it pertains to your statement about the national identification cards. That bill was introduced in June. The difference as nearly as I can tell between what you refer to as the national identification card system and the bill I introduced is that under the national identification card system the holder of such a card could buy a gun anywhere in any State in the United States. Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, of course, this is not permitted. So first of all, it would require a repeal of some provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 in order to adopt the idea of a national identification card system.

I wonder what you think about that.

35-394-70——3

Senator TYDINGS. Well, I have not had a chance to study it, but on the surface this appears to perhaps follow the thrust of the permit or licensing proposal that I just discussed.

Chairman DODD. Very well.

Senator TYDINGS. And if it does, I think that the committee should consider it.

Chairman DODD. What I wanted to call your attention to was that it would require a change in the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Senator TYDINGS. And as I gather, from page 4 of the bill, lines 24 and 25, "Each person who possesses any firearm on the effective date of this chapter shall within 120 days following such date, unless he sooner sells such firearm, obtain a certificate in accordance with the provisions of this chapter." So that means that each gun owner in a sense would obtain a license or a permit or an identification card.

Chairman DODD. He would get one. It would be good for life, pay $1 for it. The only difference I can see offhand between the identification system and the certification system is that the identification card system seems to allow the holder to buy a gun anywhere. He could cross State lines and buy a gun, which, of course, we said he cannot do under the Gun Control Act of 1968. That is what I wanted to call to your attention, and we can look at it further.

Senator TYDINGS. I think this definitely appears to be a step in the right direction.

Chairman DODD. Very well. Go ahead, Senator.

Senator TYDINGS. Yes, I wanted to discuss with you for a minute the different proposals relating to obscenity.

In the recent Ginsburg case, the Supreme Court case involving that lunchstand owner in New York, the Supreme Court approved wordfor-word and upheld the validity of the New York statute prescribing the sale of pornographic literature, films, cards, et cetera to children, juveniles 17 years of age and under. I think that there have been a number of antiobscenity bills proposed. I introduced an antipornography bill yesterday with a cosponsorship of some 20 or 30 other Senators.

Chairman DODD. This is S. 2673.

Senator TYDINGS. I think that is the number. After a good deal of study, Mr. Chairman, with the same objective, of course, as the other proposals, my bill was based on utilizing the language of the Supreme Court of the State of New York together with the Supreme Court of the United States upholding the New York statute and take advantage of the broader area of constitutionality where you proscribe or prevent pornography from falling into the hands of juveniles 17 years of age and under. And I feel that my proposal which has the same objective; namely, preventing the distribution of pornography into the hands of young people, will stand the constitutional attacks which any such legislation is always subject to. And I think we have a real chance to report out an effective antipornography measure. And since the estimates run as high as 75 percent of all pornographic material eventually gets into the hands of juveniles, persons 16 and under, I think that is the area which the effort should be made, and I know the chairman will make it.

But I really make those remarks because I think it is very important that the language we draft takes advantage of the most recent decisions

and that it be upheld, as it can be upheld, by the courts as constitutional if properly drafted and properly phrased."

I went on several other bills, but in studying them I did not think that they were properly drafted. I did not feel that they took advantage of the court decisions, and that is why I introduced my own bill, and that is why I think I received so many cosponsors.

Chairman DODD.. Very well. It looks very good, and as you know, we are trying to get it out and we will certainly give that consideration as we move ahead with the whole problem.

I want to thank you very much for your testimony, Senator Tydings. As always, you have been very helpful.

Senator TYDINGS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman DODD. This will conclude our testimony for today. Senator Bennett has withdrawn his bill having to do with ammunition as has Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia, so S. 845 and S. 1432 will not be before the committee, and, therefore, these Senators will not appear to testify.

So in view of that development, we will recess and met tomorrow at 9 a.m., when we will hear Mr. Donald E. Santarelli, the Associate Deputy Attorney General, and Mr. Randolph W. Thrower, Commissioner of Internal Revenue; Eugene P. Rossides, the Assistant Secretary for Enforcement of the Treasury Department, John J. Burkhart, the chief counsel for the city of Toledo, and Mr. Woodson Scott, the president of the National Rifle Association. The hearing tomorrow will be also in this room beginning at 9 o'clock. This hearing is recessed.

(Whereupon, at 10:05 a.m., the subcommittee adjourned, to reconvene at 9 a.m., Thursday, July 24, 1969.)

FIREARMS LEGISLATION

THURSDAY, JULY 24, 1969

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE JUVENILE DELINQUENCY
OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee (composed of Senators Dodd, Hart, Bayh, Burdick, Tydings, Kennedy, Hruska, Fong, Thurmond, and Cook) met, pursuant to recess, at 9:05 a.m. in room 2228, New Senate Office Building, the Honorable Thomas J. Dodd (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Senator Dodd.

Also present: Carl L. Perian, staff director; Walter Kenney, Jr., counsel; William C. Mooney, chief investigator; Peter Freivalds, research director; Eugene W. Gleason, editorial director; Elizabeth V. DePaulo, staff member; and Richard C. Sheridan, minority counsel. Chairman DODD. This hearing is now open.

Our first witness as we resume this hearing on the several bills which have been introduced with respect to legislation on firearms are Eugene T. Rossides, Mr. Randolph Thrower, and Mr. Donald Santarelli.

Mr. Rossides is Assistant Secretary of the Department of the Treasury; Mr. Randolph Thrower is Commissioner of Internal Revenue; and Mr. Santarelli is Associate Deputy of the Administration of Criminal Justice.

I understand that you would like to appear together.

Mr. Rossides, would you prefer to start?

Mr. ROSSIDES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman DODD. Before you speak, I might say that we are glad to have you here giving us the benefit of your experience on the bills before us.

Mr. ROSSIDES. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. As I mentioned to your staff, I am to testify on a previously scheduled hearing at 10 o'clock on legislation regarding protection of our embassies which had been scheduled prior to your scheduling this hearing.

Chairman DODD. Where do you have to go?

Mr. ROSSIDES. To the Rayburn Building.

Chairman DODD. Well, I just came from there and it isn't so far. Mr. ROSSIDES. That's one of the reasons why I would like to be excused after I have testified.

Chairman DODD. Of course.

(Mr. Rossides' biography is to follow.)

BIOGRAPHY OF EUGENE T. ROSSIDES, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF THE U.S. TREASURY

DEPARTMENT

Mr. Rossides received his A.B. degree from Columbia College in 1949 and his LL.B. degree from Columbia Law School in 1952. He served as a criminal law (31)