"That a sum, not exceeding £182,574, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1876, for the Consular Establishments Abroad, and for other Expenditure chargeable on the Consular Vote."(Mr. John Holms.) nomy Motion made, and Question proposed, | assistance by appointing salaried Vice Consuls rather than by granting the Consuls increased office allowances or salaries; but the question of ecoto Odessa, there was only a net inhad not been lost sight of. As crease of expense of £150 a-year; and with reference to Tiflis it was a point of such commercial and political importance that it was thought to be very important that a Consul should be appointed there. He hoped the Committee would be satisfied with this explanation. There might be cases where reductions of salary might be made, and the Foreign Office was anxious to carry out all possible reductions, but it was necessary to do it with scrupulous care. New markets were became advisable to have British agents to look after our commerce there, and, in fact, they had received several communications from places abroad requesting that the British Government would appoint Consuls at the ports of those places, and, commercially considered, MR. BOURKE, in reply, said, that no part of our Civil Service had undergone so thorough an investigation as the Consular Service, which had come out of the inquiry with very great credit, it having been shown that the members of that service had performed their duties with considerable advantage to the country. Great pains had been taken by the Department to carry out the re-opening all over the world, so that it commendations of the Select Committee of that House, which had sat some time since, to investigate the position of the service, and in accordance with those recommendations, the number of Consular posts in many places had been reduced, to enable Consuls to be appointed in more important positions. That Com-those applications were deserving of atmittee, however, had admitted in its Report that many of the Consular posts were underpaid, and the increase in the charges in the instances referred to by the hon. Member were sanctioned after a most careful inquiry, instituted with the view of securing additional efficiency and economy. In each case the increase had been made on the recommendations of a Departmental Committee which had been sitting for the last two years. With regard to the case of Mogador, that post had been raised from a Vice Consulship to a Consulship in consequence of the Consular and Magisterial duties being of an important character, and experience having proved both in this case and in respect to Elsinore that the duties could not be efficiently carried out by trading and unpaid officers. With reference to Alicante, that was a Consulate which the Government hoped eventually to reduce, but they thought it would not be desirable to do so in the present state of Spain, especially as the Consul was a valuable and experienced officer. As to the cases mentioned in South America, the Consular duties there had increased, and it was found necessary to afford the Consuls at the posts alluded to additional assistance; and, after mature consideration, it was deemed expedient, in the interests of the service, to afford this tention. He therefore feared he could hold out no hope of reducing the Consular posts, but he trusted the Foreign Office would be able to regulate the matter properly, so that it might be found practicable, with a due regard to efficiency, to reduce some salaries, at the same time that other salaries might have to be increased. Lord Tenterden, the Permanent Under Secretary at the Foreign Office, Mr. Alston, the Chief Clerk, and Mr. Wylde, the Superintendent of the Consular department, made every effort to secure efficiency in the Consular Service, and also to reduce the posts whenever they found there was a redundancy. The latter gentleman took the greatest care to keep down our Consular establishments to the lowest level that was compatible with efficiency, and in the recommendations which he made to the Secretary of State went into each case laboriously and conscientiously. Much time was taken up in seeing whether reductions could be made, but this was a matter which had to be dealt with very carefully. MR. WHITWELL, referring to the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, said, that many of them, but not all, had been attended to by the Government. The subject of proper representation of the interests of British there were a great many British subjects and a great trade there. trade and commerce in foreign ports was of the greatest importance. To be represented by thoroughly competent Consuls was of great importance to this country. He thought that Consuls were frequently appointed where their services were not needed, and in places where there were Vice Consuls the office of Consul was a mere sinecure. He should vote with the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. J. Holms) if he should think it necessary to go to a division, which probably he would not. MR. SERJEANT SHERLOCK agreed in the opinion that it was of the greatest importance to the trade and commerce of Great Britain and Ireland to be efficiently represented abroad. Disapproval had been expressed of the appointment of Consuls to represent British interests in foreign countries the language of which they did not speak; and there was certainly much force in the objection. SIR GEORGE BOWYER thought it could not be expected that Consuls should know all languages, and in many instances they doubtless required the aid of interpreters. MR. RAMSAY disapproved of money voted by the House for a certain purpose being applied to some other object, and hoped such a thing would not occur again. MR. DODSON thought the Committee were indebted to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hackney (Mr. J. Holms) for bringing this question forward, and to the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs for the explanation he had given. He hoped the question would not be pressed to a division. He trusted the Under Secretary had specific reductions in view, though he did not ask the hon. Gentleman to name the places. MR. BOURKE said, that the subject just adverted to had occupied his attention, and he should continue to bear it carefully in mind. As to the cases of Odessa and Tiflis, they constituted a portion of a great scheme of Consular appointments which had been carried out, and in which a saving of £1,400 a-year had been effected. MR. SWANSTON took exception to a statement made by the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. J. Holms) that there were no British subjects in Mogador. So far, he said, from that being the case, MR. J. HOLMS explained, and expressed regret that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Foreign Office had not given the Committee more detailed explanations and information in reference to the matters to which he (Mr. J. Holms) had called attention. He hoped, however, that in the next year the subject would again be brought before the House, and with the permission of the Committee he would now withdraw his Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. Original Question put, and agreed to. (8.) £72,105, to complete the sum for the Colonies, Grants in Aid. the Orange River Territory and St. (9.) £2,435, to complete the sum for Helena. (14.) £325,359, to complete the sum for Superannuation and Retired Allowances. (15.) £27,600, to complete the sum for Merchant Seamen's Fund and Pensions. (16.) £23,500, to complete the sum for Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad. (17.) £14,071, to complete the sum for Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland. (18.) £3,637, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable Allowances, &c., Great Britain. (19.) £3,988, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable Allowances, &c. Ireland. CLASS VII.-MISCELLANEOUS, SPECIAL, AND TEMPORARY OBJECTS. (20.) £28,722, to complete the sum for Temporary Commissions. (21.) £2,520, to complete the sum for Deep Sea Exploring Expedition. (22.) £917, to complete the sum for Arctic Expedition. (23.) £4,373, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Expenses. REVENUE DEPARTMENTSPOST OFFICE PACKET AND TELEGRAPH SERVICES. (24.) £830,896, to complete the sum for Revenue Departments. (25.) £1,415,172, to complete the sum for Inland Revenue. (26.) £2,530,210, to complete the sum for the Post Office. (27.) £652,688, to complete the sum for the Post Office Packet Service. (28.) £735,714, to complete the sum for the Post Office Telegraph Service. MR. BECKETT-DENISON asked, when it was likely that the claims of the railway companies would be brought to arbitration, and what sum would bably have to be paid? pro LORD JOHN MANNERS, in reply, said, that it was quite impossible to say what the amount would be. In one case, which had been decided, the claim of the company was for £400,000, and the amount awarded £73,000. The Department had no wish to postpone payment directly the amount had been ascertained, and it could do no more than it did to hurry on the arbitrations; and he need hardly say that when decisions were come to, there would be no delay in what remained to be done. In reply to Mr. WHITWELL, LORD JOHN MANNERS said, that the Report of the Departmental Committee on Telegraphs had just been made, and that all the points embraced in it should receive the consideration which their importance merited. Some time, however, was necessary for the purpose of coming to a right decision upon them. So far as he could see, there was a growing development of the telegraph service, and the progress of the revenue arising from it was equally satisfactory, as evidenced by an increased receipt of £60,000. He could not allow the opportunity to glide by without expressing his sense of the great and permanent services which Mr. Scudamore had rendered not only to the Department of the Post Office, but to the community of the United Kingdom. Vote agreed to. SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES. (29.) £5,000, Supplementary sum for Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens. (30.) £500, Supplementary sum for Houses of Parliament. County Court Buildings. (31.) £6,000, Supplementary sum for (32.) £550, for Marlborough House. (33.) £13,189, Supplementary sum for the Local Government Board, Ireland. (34.) £1,000, for the Sub Wealden. Exploration. (35.) £2,000, for the Paris International Maritime Expedition. (36.) £7,500, for the Entertainment of the Sultan of Zanzibar. (37.) £8,250, for Repayment of Moneys under "The London and North Western Railway Company (New Lines, &c.) Act, 1875." (38.) £2,200, Supplementary sum for the House of Commons. Clauses 1 to 51, inclusive, agreed to. Clause 52 (First Commissioners). THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, that the measure having been re-committed, it had been carefully considered by a Select Committee, who had both revised and put together the various enactments relating to the Public Works Loans Commissioners, and also incorporated in that Bill, with certain Amendments, the new proposals of the Government for effecting those alterations in the present system which he had explained on the second reading of one of the Bills that he had introduced. But there was one point which the Committee thought ought to be left to the decision of the House itself—namely, the nomination of the Gentlemen who should be appointed to act as Public Works Loans Commissioners under the Bill. The Commission had existed for a great number of years, and had always held its authority under what might be called a Parliamentary title. Its Members had discharged their duties with the purest public spirit, and in a manner extremely conducive to the public interest. They had now to nominate a Commission which should undertake that work for the future; and it was, of course, the wish of the Government to obtain the services of as many as possible of the Gentlemen who had hitherto acted in that capacity. Knowing that there were some of them who wished to retire, the Government had endeavoured to find certain other names which they could recommend to the House in order to complete the number of Commissioners which they deemed desirable. He had placed on the Table the names of the Gentlemen whom he intended to propose, but he was sorry to say that, although the first name standing on the list was that of one a continuance of whose valuable assistance they had hoped to secure (Lord Overstone), he had that morning received a communication from him stating that he was unable to serve any longer as a Commissioner. It would also, he was sure, be a subject of general regret to the House not to see again at the head of the Commission the name of his right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. Hubbard), to whom more than to anybody else the successful working of that Commission was in an especial manner due. For, he thought, 21 years his right hon. Friend had been not only a Member, but the Chairman of that Commission, and all who had had experience of its working were aware that he had been the life and soul of the Commission. It was, therefore, with extreme regret and reluctance, and after remonstrance on his part, that he had to submit to the positive decision of his right hon. Friend and refrain from placing his name before the House. At the same time he must admit that after having so long done such good service, his right hon. Friend might fairly claim to be relieved from duties which had been onerous and which promised to become even more so, and although they, perhaps, took a more sanguine view of his power and his willingness to work than he was himself disposed to do, yet they must allow that he was the best judge in such a matter. Under those circumstances, the names 16 in number, which he had now to propose as Commissioners were the following:-Thomas M. Weguelin, esq., M.P., Kirkman D. Hodgson, esq., M.P., Paul Butler, esq., Thomson Hankey, esq., M.P., T. N. Hunt, esq., H. H. Vivian, esq., M.P., W. Jones Loyd, esq., Herbert Barnard, esq., Lord Napier and Ettrick, R. Harvey, esq., Lord Cottesloe, Sir Charles H. Mills, bart., M.P., Jervoise Smith, esq., Edward Howley Palmer, esq., Right honourable T. M. Gibson, and Thomas Salt, esq., M.P. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the insertion of the above names in page 22, line 1, after the words "that is to say.' MR. GOSCHEN said, he was sure that every Member in the House would unite in the expressions of regret which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the retirement from the Commission of his right hon. Colleague (Mr. Hubbard) and in the warm recognition he had accorded to the services which he had rendered. He was also convinced that all hon. Members on that side of the House, and likewise the public out-ofdoors, felt the same confidence in his right hon. Colleague as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed. It was, moreover, due to the Government that he should state from that side of the House that the names proposed to be added to the Commission were perfectly unexceptionable in their character. He ventured to think that the Government had chosen the very best men who could be selected for the purpose, and that the Commission, in the discharge of the important duties entrusted to it, would command the confidence of the public. Amendment agreed to; names inserted. Clause 53 (Existing officers of Commissioners). SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL, in moving as an Amendment, to leave out from line 9 to line 22, both inclusive, said, he could not see that there was any ground for compensation under the circumstances, and he therefore proposed to leave out the words which would give it. MR. W. H. SMITH explained that the ground for the insertion of the clause was, that the Select Committee, and also | hitherto done, harbour authorities who the Government, felt that it was expedient wanted to borrow public money would that officers employed by the Commis- be left helpless. He did not say that sion should in future be paid by salary the power of appealing to the Treasury instead of being remunerated by fees. ought to be maintained; but he wished Under these circumstances it was felt to know how harbour authorities would necessary to give power to the Treasury stand in future? to consider any just and fair claim that LORD ESLINGTON supported the might be made for compensation, pro- view of the hon. Member who had just vided that if any officer had received re-addressed the Committee. These works muneration in excess of what might be contributed greatly towards the saving deemed to be fit and proper remunera- of life, and should be looked upon as tion for the work he had performed, such public works. There was no advantage excess should not in any degree be con- in giving the Tyne Commissioners a loan sidered as entitling him to claim com- at 5 per cent, because they could go into pensation. There was, however, no the market and get money at any time fear that the claims would be received at that rate of interest. with any excess of liberality. GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOUR approved of the substitution of salaries for fees, and he hoped that precautions would be taken to prevent delays on the part of the salaried officers, from making delays in the inquiries for loans, which, no doubt, might result from the change in the mode of remunerating them for their labours, seeing that, to some extent, the remuneration by fees did excite men to work. MR. HERMON said, that the clause had received very careful consideration by the Select Committee. Amendment negatived. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the question must be decided not upon that Bill, but by an Amendment of the Harbours of Refuge Act. By 24 & 25 Vict. public authorities were enabled to borrow money from the Public Works Loans Commissioners with the sanction of the Board of Trade at rates of interest varying from 34 to 5 per cent; but under the Bill the House would be called upon to express its opinion upon new schemes. wished to point out that the Public Works Loans Commissioners had been invested with a certain amount of discretion, with which it was desirable not to interfere. It was true that persons who had been unable to obtain from the He Remaining clauses agreed to, with Commissioners so low a rate of interest Amendments. Schedule 1. MR. STEVENSON copmlained that the Public Works Loans Commissioners had of late declined to give effect to the intentions of Parliament in their administration of the Act of 1861 for aiding harbour improvements by loans at a low rate of interest. Now, these harbours were of very great public use, especially upon the North-east Coast. Great works had been there carried out, particularly in the Tyne, yet the Commissioners had declined to lend any further sum there, except upon 5 per cent interest. Fortunately, they had been able, under the existing Acts, to appeal to the Treasury, and so to get the rate demanded by the Commissioners reduced; but that power would no longer exist under the Bill, and if the Public Works Loans Commissioners pursued the same policy as they had Mr. W. H. Smith as they wished had been in the habit of applying to the Treasury for more favourable terms; but the practice was one which was obviously open to abuse, and which ought not to be maintained. Parliament, in fixing the powers of the Public Works Loans Commissioners, might have omitted to make provisions which ought to have been made—in the case of the Tyne and other places it was probably intended to make a more liberal grant than the strict wording of the Act implied-and it was desirable that the question should be settled. At the same time, he hoped there would be no attempt to hamper the action or to tamper with the independence of the Commissioners. One of the objects of the present Bill was to do away with the appeal to the Treasury, which was, in fact, an appeal from an independent authority to a body which might be open to influence. If the law was not satisfactory, by all means, he would say, let it be altered; |