informers. Motion agreed to. Bill read a second time, and committed for To-morrow. SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACT (In the Committee.) ther they took their religiousness out of instead of into the pockets of private the Bible or no. They had an opinion of their own; they worked away to make everybody uncomfortable; and they were the most disagreeable people in the world. The right way of proceeding would have been to repeal the old Act, and then everything would have gone on properly. He was sorry that had not been done; but, at the same time, the people would get something. It was now proposed that the Home Office should protect those persons who went to amuse themselves in the Aquarium, or the Botanical Gardens, or other places that were pleasant and agreeable on Sunday, and who did no harm to anybody, and he thought that in this respect the Government had acted very cleverly. He congratulated the Government on the course they had taken, and hoped they had now got rid of all the ridiculous rubbish he had heard in the House ever since he had been a Member of it, to prevent the great body of the working classes from enjoying themselves just as they pleased, so long as they did not interfere with the rest of the country. MR. ASSHETON CROSS did not pretend for a moment that this Bill could be looked upon as a settlement of the general question. That question, if brought under discussion, would inevitably raise a great deal of feeling on both sides throughout the country. Among the working classes, as well as in other sections of the community, there were, no doubt, many who believed that the Sunday ought to be strictly a day of rest. At the same time he, for one, did not wish to deprive people of the means of recreation on that day. It seemed to him that those who sought, as in the case of the Brighton Aquarium, to put in force the Act to which the present Bill referred, were really taking the strongest step possible to secure the repeal of that Act. SIR HENRY JAMES inquired whether the Bill might be taken as a temporary measure, because it gave immense power, not only in the remission of penalties in all actions in which they were recoverable, but even in political trials. He would suggest that, instead of the Crown having the power to remit the penalties, they should prevent the informers getting them. The money should go into the hands of the Crown SIR HENRY JAMES said, that he would withdraw his Amendment, which was under discussion when the Committee last reported Progress, and bring it forward at the next stage. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL was obliged to his hon. and learned Friend, and as the hon. Members for Chatham and Liverpool were not present their Amendments could also be taken on the Report. On the Motion of Mr. ATTORNEY GE NERAL an Amendment was made in post- Clause, as amended, agreed to. Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, to be considered To-morrow. POST OFFICE (SUPERANNUATION AND BILL WITHDRAWN. MR. W. H. SMITH moved that the Order for Committee be discharged in order that a proper schedule of the officers who would be entitled to benefit by the measure might be prepared before its reintroduction next Session. Motion agreed to. DEPARTMENT OF SCIENCE AND ART SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. VISCOUNT SANDON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the object of the measure was to enable the Department of Science and Art to receive bequests of real property. That high-minded and liberal man, Sir Joseph Whitworth, had expressed a wish to add to the benefactions he had already given to the country. Sir Joseph Whitworth had endowed a scholarship of mechanical industry, to the amount of £3,000 a-year, in connection with the South Kensington Museum, and he now wished to increase that benefaction still further by making a larger endowment of a more permanent character, by bequeathing certain lands of great value to the Science and Art Department. He had expressed his own strong conviction that the maintenance by this country of her superiority in the mechanical arts depended upon her sons having the highest training in science as applied to these arts, and, for this purpose, he had communicated to Her Majesty's Government his wish to make hereafter this noble gift to the nation. It was impossible, however, to effect that object under the statute of Mortmain, and the Government thought they were only interpreting the wishes of the nation by enabling Sir Joseph Whitworth to carry out his admirable object through means of this Bill, which would confer on the Department powers similar to those already conferred on the British Museum. Sir Joseph Whitworth had enhanced still further the value of his gift by making it a condition that the bequest should be subject to the discretion of Parliament, so as to be altered if necessary to suit the varying circumstances of the time. He need hardly say that the Government had the greatest pleasure in doing all in their power to meet the wishes of this distinguished gentleman, and he felt sure that he was only expressing the sentiments of all the hon. Members of that House, when he said that, though this noble act could not add to the position which Sir Joseph Whitworth occupied most justly in the civilized world, it would establish a fresh claim to the affection and respect with which his name was regarded by his countrymen. Motion agreed to. FOREIGN JURISDICTION BILL.—[Lords.] (Mr. Bourke.) [BILL 284.] SECOND READING. Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Bourke.) MR. JACKSON thought the measure required some discussion, and on account of the lateness of the hour moved the Debate adjourned till To-morrow. PUBLIC WORKS LOAN BILL-[BILL 269.] (Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. William Henry Smith.) CONSIDERATION. Bill as amended, considered. MR. STEVENSON moved, as an Amendment, in page 5, line 24, to add at end of clause the following Proviso: of principal moneys due by any harbour autho "Provided, that when the aggregate amount rity to the Commissioners under The Harbours and Passing Tolls, &c. Act, 1861,' exceeds one hundred thousand pounds, the rate of interest on such excess shall be three and a half per cent. or such higher rate, not exceeding five per cent., as may in the judgment of the Treasury be necessary to enable the loan to be made without loss to the Exchequer." THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE QUER consented to the Amendment. Amendment agreed to; words inserted. WAYS AND MEANS. Resolution [August 4] reported, and agreed to. CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL. On Motion of Mr. RAIKES, Bill to apply a sum, out of the Consolidated Fund, to the service of the year ending the thirty-first day of March one thousand eight hundred and seventysix, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament, ordered to be brought in by Mr. RAIKES, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the Bill read a second time, and committed EXCHEQUER, and Mr. WILLIAM HENRY SMITH. Bill presented, and read the first time. for To-morrow. House adjourned at half after One o'clock, Viscount Sandon HOUSE OF LORDS, Friday, 6th August, 1875. * * these papers its contents became a matter of public discussion; and he believed he was showing respect and attachment to those Royal Personages by eliciting, as no doubt he should do, from the MINUTES.-PUBLIC BILLS-First Reading-noble Duke a direct contradiction to all Unseaworthy Ships (265); Public Works Loans (266). Second Reading-Ecclesiastical Commissioners Act Amendment (252); Expiring Laws Continuance (260); East India Home Government (Appointments)* (261); Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1867, Amendment (262); Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1869, Amendment (236). * Committee Report Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) (250); Government Officers (Security)* (251); Metropolitan Board of Works (Loans)* (244). Report-Militia Laws Consolidation and Amendment (243-264). Third Reading-Turnpike Acts Continuance CARDINAL MANNING. OBSERVATIONS. LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE rose to call the attention of the Lord President to the following paragraph:Extract from "Weekly Register," 46 17th July, 1875: "Court, Fashionable, and Home News." The Queen and the Cardinal. Reception of His Eminence at the Prince of Wales' garden party. The question of Cardinal Manning's precedence was indirectly settled at the Prince of Wales' garden party last week, when Her Majesty the Queen was present. The Prince of rival, cordially shook hands with him, and then presented His Eminence to His Royal Mother, who received him most graciously and conversed with him for a while. His Eminence remained within the royal circle for some time, a privilege accorded only to those of the highest rank." The noble Lord said, The Weekly Register was a paper of considerable authority among Roman Catholics, and up to a recent period, at all events, enjoyed the special blessing of the Pope. He now wished to ask the noble Duke the Lord President, whether the information contained in that paragraph was correct. Having heard it said that by calling attention to it he was intruding on the privacy of the Royal Family, he would first repudiate the justice of that assertion. The condemnation justly applied to those who had inserted the paragraph in The Church Herald and Weekly Register, and that clearly with a political object. But once circulated through Wales advanced to meet the Cardinal on his ar that was important in the paragraph referred to. Some told him the matter was of no importance; but that the matter was of public interest was shown by leading articles having appeared on the subject in the leading journal, in the leading Roman Catholic journal, and in some others at the time of Dr. Manning being made a Cardinal. Living, as he did, among a Roman Catholic population, generally well-disposed and well-conducted, but with their allegiance nicely balanced between their Church and the State, he knew that the latter could not afford to yield one atom to the aggression of the former; and if the reception of Dr. Manning as a Cardinal was uncontradicted, it would doubtless give some additional influence to the the Roman Catholic Church in these realms. His contention, therefore, was that in these realms the Queen was the sole Fountain of Honour, and that without her approval every British subject. was forbidden to accept any rank or decoration from any foreign Potentate. Before dwelling on the few facts necessary to support this view he would state his grounds for believing the facts contained in the paragraph to be unfounded. Her Majesty has always been remarkable for her intimate knowledge of punctilious adherence to constitutional forms and principles. She was well aware that it was only by suffrance that a Cardinal resided in this country, and if she intended to permit Dr. Manning to accept the rank of Cardinal she would do it in the legal and official form. By so doing she would show that as a constitutional Sovereign she had acted on the advice of her Ministers; whereas by an informal recognition it might be said she evinced her sympathies with the views advocated by Dr. Manning, though, thank God, she left her people no room to doubt her willing acceptance of those Protestant principles on which by the Act of Settlement, her Throne was based. And as the name of the illustrious Heir to the Throne had been introduced into the paragraph, he would take the occasion of saying that the people of this country had no less confidence in his not He referred to Queen Elizabeth, saying -"She did not like her dogs to wear any collar but her own;" to George III., by saying he "Liked his sheep to be marked with his own mark." He continued "I do not say that there was not something coarse in this somewhat despotic observation; but it contains the germ of good sense, and a right appreciation of the national feelings that for Englishmen, at all events, the Sovereign should be the only fountain of honour."[Ibid.] The noble Earl afterwards stated that a regulation to this effect had been made in 1812. ceptions to the rule thus laid down, the After explaining the few exnoble Earl went on to say "It is impossible to make exceptions at all without breaking down the whole thing.... I may refer to a case that occurred during the last war. The Legion of Honour was offered to Colonel Loyd Lindsay, who already bore the Victoria Cross on his breast, who was in every way worthy of the honour the French Government offered to confer upon him, and in whose case an exception to our general rule would, I venture to think, have been equally agreeable to Germany as to France. But I should have been obliged to make the same answer in his case as I have in all others, if from other reasons point out some of the difficulties which would probably have arisen from a compliance with the application for permission in Colonel Loyd in bringing aid to the wounded; but at the Lindsay's case. He had distinguished himself adherence to the same policy and the English subjects without the consent of their same principles. Could Cardinal Man-own Sovereign."-[3 Hansard, ccxiv. 777.] ning, as a British subject, be presented? When he was made a Cardinal the question of his position was much discussed in the public journals of this country. If he waived his rank and wished to be presented as Dr. Manning, he had no doubt that Her Majesty would be well advised as to the course she should pursue; but if so received at Court, the name of "Doctor,' Cardinal Manning would appear on the list. But as the announcement in the paragraph was received by many as true, and by more as important, he must endeavour very shortly to elucidate the law and practice of this matter both at home and abroad: to show that, not in the United Kingdom only, but over the whole Continent, it was, and always had been, held to be a matter of serious import-first, How did the law stand as to Cardinals? He wished some noble and learned Lord I would tell them. But he found that when, in 1851, this question was considered, it was not contradicted that a Cardinal's duty was to assist in forwarding the business of the Holy See, and he could, therefore, only absent himself from Rome by reason of being sent as a Legate; and that the Government of this country, and of every country in Europe, accepting this view, did not permit a Cardinal to reside in their same time he was doing that, there were others dominions, except by consent of the engaged in it. In France, there were subjects Crown. By the Act allowing diplomatic of Her Majesty engaged in it who might have relations with Rome, the Sovereign was been influenced by political and religious feelforbidden to receive an ecclesiastic as ings. Some of them belonged to the Home Rule party. If permission to wear a foreign Ambassador from the Holy See. Then it decoration were given to these persons, the was certain that no British subject could exception would have been made in favour of accept a foreign Order without permis- men who to some extent deny the supremacy of sion of the Crown, and that this permisthe Sovereign."—[Ibid. 779-80.] sion was never granted, save in the case He (Lord Oranmore and Browne) acof an Envoy carrying an English deco- cepted this line of reasoning as unanration to a foreign Sovereign, or in the swerable, and contended that if it was case of an Englishman distinguishing good touching decorations, which carried himself in the field, either when in the with them no precedence and no authoservice of or acting with the troops of a rity à fortiori, how much more necessary foreign Sovereign. The noble Earl the that the same rules should be enforced late Minister of Foreign Affairs enforced in cases of rank giving the highest the soundness and importance of this precedence!-an authority involving the rule so forcibly that he felt sure their religious and political feelings, and, to Lordships would be glad that he should some extent, denying the supremacy of recall a part of his statement on that the Crown. But, in truth, he only advooccasion. The noble Lord (Earl Gran-cated that rank conferred by the Pope ville), stated "It has been held for centuries that Orders from foreign Sovereigns could not be held by Lord Oranmore and Browne he had not been entitled to wear it. I wish to on a British subject should be treated in exactly the same way as rank conferred by the Emperor of Germany or any other Potentate. But he asked attention to the following results, a very small part of the whole question, if this wholesome rule were not held to apply to dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church. According to the Roman Catholic Register, he found there were two Cardinals, six Roman Catholic Archbishops, and 44 Roman Bishops, English subjects, residing in the United Kingdom, and besides these there were a crowd of minor dignitaries. Here were 52 gentlemen claiming rank derived from a foreign Potentate without consent of the Crown, two of them claiming precedence over any rank the Queen could bestow. He might also mention that during the last few years the Pope had conferred the titles of Count and Baron on many British subjects. He could not conclude without referring to the precedence given in The Dublin Gazette, in 1849, to the Roman Catholic Archbishops. He asked the late Government, and he now asked the noble Duke-Was there ever any legal and official order signed for the precedence so gazetted? He was led to believe there never was. Though very sorry to intrude so long on their Lordships' time, he must say a few words to guard himself against being supposed to be so short-sighted or unpractical as to ask any Government to attempt to ignore the existence of the Roman Catholic Church in these realms. Having all his life lived under its benign influence, knowing the part it played in the present and the past history, he knew it was impossible. But it was only a weak Government which attempted to deal with it on any other principle than it dealt with the other great interests in the country, be they lay or ecclesiastical -namely, considering the interests of each as bearing on the whole, and always jealously guarding the supremacy of the Executive. Everyone would accept these principles; but every Government knew that the Roman Catholic Church only accepted them with reserve, and that every concession brought a fresh demand. Many moderate men who would have said that Her Majesty was right to show favour in 1849 to Dr. Murray, the friend of mixed education, of moderation, and conciliation would condemn as weakness any favour shown by the Crown to Cardinals Manning or Cullen. Cardinal Manning had announced in one of his sermons that he came "to conquer heresy VOL. CCXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.] in England," which meant the overthrow of every principle on which our institutions were founded, and both were the advocates of Infallibility and the supremacy of the Church of Rome over all Powers and Principalities. The exPremier, convinced by the telegram from Rome which deprived him of office, truly described their views 'as aggressive, not defensive; as putting forward principles adverse to the purity and integrity of civil allegiance, as a policy of violence and change of faith." Till the Roman Church returned to the policy of Dr. Murray the principle of self-preservation alone forbade all concession. With regard to the Question he had to put, he hoped that the noble Duke would give no evasive answer to it, but that he would tell their Lordships that Cardinal Manning was not in any capacity presented to or received by Her Majesty, and that the Government could not advise Her Majesty to confirm the rank given to the Cardinal by the Pope. An assurance on these points would give great satisfaction to every loyal subject of Her Majesty. In conclusion, he hoped the Government would show their reprobation of that veiled treason which induced the Chief Magistrate of Dublin only last night to give the toast of "The Pope" before that of "The Queen." THE DUKE OF RICHMOND: My Lords, I hope that neither on this occasion, nor on any other occasion, I shall give an evasive answer to any Question which may be addressed to me in this House. In the first place, I do protest against the Question which the noble Lord has put. And I do think that it is a Question which ought never to have been placed upon the Notice Paper. I shall confine myself-as I believe your Lordships would wish me to do-to the Question which has been put to me; and I shall not attempt to follow the noble Lord into the discussion which he wishes to raise, as to the position of the Queen of this country. I had thought that that matter had been sufficiently established, and that the whole of the country were perfectly satisfied with, and had a thorough knowledge of, the position of Her Majesty in her own dominions. I shall now proceed to answer the Question which the noble Lord has put. It is, whether at the garden party at Chiswick the Prince of Wales ad X |