a discretion to direct that the costs should | reported; as amended, considered; read be between party and party, or between the third time, and passed, with Amendsolicitor and client, as he should think ments.

fit.

Amendment proposed, in page 89, at the end of Order 55, as amended, to add the words

"The court shall in any case have power to direct whether the costs shall be paid as between party and party, or as between solicitor and client."-(Mr. Gregory.)

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL objected to the Amendment, which had, he said, been already discussed and decided upon.

MR. WATKIN WILLIAMS said, that what had been decided upon was a compulsory enactment, whilst the present proposition was, that there should be a discretionary power in the Judge as to costs. He could not understand why the Attorney General should not approve of this Amendment. He should vote in

favour of it.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIA

TION) BILL.

(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON:

Before, Sir, this Bill is read a second time, I desire, with the permission of the House, to make some observations upon the course and conduct of Public Business during the present Session. I can assure the House that I do this with the feel myself incompetent to enlist the greatest reluctance-partly, because I attention of the House as it should be enlisted in reference to a question of this kind, after it has undergone labour so long and arduous, and, partly, because I feel still more incompetent to dispel those mists of illusion which somehow or other-perhaps before the conclusion of this debate we may discover how-have, in my opinion, gathered round the subject. But statements so remarkable, the public mind to false conclusions, and, in my opinion, so calculated to lead have been made within the last few days, that I feel myself absolutely comand bare, but I trust a true, statement pelled to lay before this House a plain within this House during the present of some passages that have occurred Session, in the hope that some one more "That those words be competent than I am may hereafter be

MR. LEEMAN hoped that the Government would not object to give this discretionary power. The present Rule as to the costs involved great hardships, and many persons had to forego their rights rather than pay the extra costs which would fall upon them when they had established their claim.

MR. JACKSON thought that the former vote in no way concluded the present proposition. In numerous cases costs as between party and party were not sufficient, because when a plaintiff

recovered a verdict the amount of it went not to him, but too often to his attorney for the extra costs.

Question put,

there added."

able to place the matter in its true light before the public mind. We are all aware that very recently the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Trea

66

sury dined with the Lord Mayor, and that after the banquet he made, as he said, some not party, but rather hisI do the right hon. Gentleman the justorical comments on what may have"tice to say that he is reported to have said

"What may have occurred in great places during the present year? In the first place, it should be recollected," said the right hon. Gentleman, "with regard to the present Session, that it has been a Session in which, as a Ministry, they were homely language, but in popular phrase, was called upon to perform that ceremony which in generally described in that country as redeem

ing their pledges! During the five years that they spent in Opposition they endeavoured to impress upon the country their sincere convictions that the time had arrived when political change was no longer required, when the distribution of political power was no longer the problem to solve in the country, but that its intelligence and energy should be directed to the improvement and elevation of the condition of the people."

and the repugnance and aversion of their supporters to undertake to deal with the question at all. But while I give the Government credit for the spirit in which they have brought forward this question, I cannot give them equal credit for the manner in which they have executed their task. They adopted, as I have said, the clause of my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of London, but in adopting it they, to a great extent, spoilt it. They spoilt it, at least in our opinion, so that we were obliged several times to divide, of course unsuccessfully, against Amendments, which they introduced. But the Bill containing that clause has gone to "another place," and the Lord Chancellor of the Government has given his decision, not in favour of the clause as moved by the Government, but for the Amendment proposed by the Opposition. The Amendment in favour of which we divided and which the Government rejected has been proposed by the Lord Chancellor to the House of Lords. At the same time, the Lord Chancellor, I believe, has introduced new matter into the clause, mat

portant character, questions which ought to be thoroughly discussed when they come before this House, but which at this period of the Session it is impossible can receive adequate consideration. I will pass on to the consideration of some other measures affecting the social con

I propose, as shortly as I can, to discuss the manner in which the right hon. Gentleman and his Government have redeemed these pledges and carried out the policy stated in the words which I have just quoted. And, in the first place, let me give to the right hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues, as composing the Government, the credit which, in my opinion, is due to them by frankly acknowledging that, in regard to the questions of the Labour Laws, they have acted wisely and boldly. But I think the House will agree with me that the task was not one of such magnitude and difficulty as was represented by the right hon. Gentleman. The question was ripe for settlement, and I believe the Government found the materials for its solution ready to their hands. Iter which raises questions of no unimthink the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary will not deny that he derived, at least, considerable assistance in his task from the materials which had been accumulated at the Home Office by his Predecessors, and in the conduct of the measures through the House I think I may be permitted to say that the Go-dition of the people to which the right vernment were well supported by the Opposition. I may also be permitted to add that the Bills as they stand at this moment are, to a very great extent, the work of the Opposition. To the Opposition it is due, as the right hon. Gentleman boasted the other day at the Mansion House, that punishment by imprisonment for breach of contract no longer exists, and to my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of London, it is due that the law as to intimidation and annoyance has been made general and is not confined to particular classes. Well, the right hon. Gentleman stated that the difficulties surrounding this subject were so great that success was believed to be almost impossible; but with the advantages that I have enumerated, I cannot see what difficulties the Government have had to meet and combat, unless they were their own repugnance and aversion

hon. Gentleman referred. I admit that the Government has called attention to many important questions affecting the social condition of the people; but I ask, have the pledges of the Government been fulfilled by merely calling attention to these questions? None of them have been broadly or completely dealt with. Why, the Social Science Congress-an institution for which I suspect the right hon. Gentleman has no great respectcould do as much in calling attention to questions of great public interest; and I may say that in the course of the present Session it has occurred to me that the right hon. Gentleman and his Cabinet would make no indifferent members of the Social Science Congress-the right hon. Gentleman himself acting as President and the heads of his Departments superintending Political Economy, Education, and the other sections. I maintain that in dealing with these

questions affecting the social condition | they had achieved, and I do not suppose of the people, the Government have it ever occurred to the authorities of established no principle, grappled with those cities that they were setting in no difficulty, solved no problem. I motion "almost all the civilizing inmaintain that the Government have fluences of humanity." In short, the subdued no class interest conflicting with Bill does for towns little more than the public welfare. Let us see how far Glasgow and Edinburgh have succeeded these assertions can be substantiated. in doing for themselves, and I doubt First let us take the Bill relating to whether it will even facilitate improvePublic Health introduced by the Go-ments, for the trouble of obtaining a vernment. In reference to that measure the right hon. Gentleman is reported to have said

the case.

We have all read the history | House, not to the Notices on the Paper of the Merchant Shipping Bill as given when the Bill was abandoned, but when at the Mansion House on Wednesday we went into Committee on the Bill. last. I believe it was a short history, When we went into Committee on the and I propose to give the House a short Bill there were 290 Notices of Amendhistory of that Bill too, and I will refer ment on the Paper, 175 being placed on to no authority except the Journals of the Paper on this side and 115 on the this House and the recorded words of other. When the Bill was abandoned, the right hon. Gentleman himself spoken if my figures are accurate, of which, in this House. The Bill was read a however, I am not absolutely certain, second time without very much discus- after the three not very satisfactory sitsion, and certainly without any serious tings to which I have referred, no fewer opposition. Three sittings were occu- than 112 Amendments had been dispied in the discussion of it in Committee. posed of, and very considerable progress In one of the earlier sittings two of its had been made in the discussion of the most material clauses were postponed, Bill. It is impossible to estimate the either because the right hon. Gentleman amount of opposition a Bill will enthe President of the Board of Trade did counter by merely counting the number not exactly understand them himself, or of Amendments. Everybody who has because he was unable to make them taken part in the discussion of a Bill comprehended by the House. In the knows perfectly well that 20 or 30 third sitting the time of the Committee Amendments may hang together, and was occupied to a very great extent by may depend on the adoption or rejection a discussion on the subject of advance of one. But in these three sittings connotes, and after the Committee had been siderable progress had been made in the for some hours laboriously engaged in discussion of the Bill, and I believe it the discussion, after the President of the was the opinion of competent authorities Board of Trade and the Chancellor of that four more sittings would have the Exchequer had taken part in the brought the Bill through Committee. debate and assented to certain Amend- [Laughter.] I hear an hon. Gentleman ments in the clause, the right hon. Gen-Ĩaugh, but I do not know what reason tleman at the head of the Government he has to do so. I am informed that got up and coolly informed the Commit-eight pages of Amendments out of the tee that that was a clause to which he 16 on the Paper were disposed of; only had never been favourably disposed, in- eight pages were left, and I repeat I asmuch as it interfered with the sacred am informed on most competent authoprinciple of freedom of contract-that rity that four more sittings would have it was introduced into the Bill in defer- brought the Bill through Committee. I ence to the opinion of the Royal Com- now come to that eventful Thursdaymission; and that as there was some not Monday, by-the-by, when the Bill difference of opinion on the subject, he was abandoned. On the previous Tuesthought it better to drop the clause day things had not gone quite as well altogether. The Committee separated as had been hoped with the Agrion that occasion in something like cultural Holdings (England) Bill. On amazement, and that Committee has the Wednesday there was a meeting never been asked to resume its labours. of the Cabinet. On Thursday mornThe right hon. Gentleman has referred ing we were informed a meeting of the more than once to the number of Amend- Conservative Party was held, and on ments on the Paper of the House as the Thursday evening the Bill was abancause of his abandonment of the Mer-doned. The inference I should be dischant Shipping Bill, and he stated that

"When he came to examine the Paper on the 22nd of July he found 178 Amendments, of which 140 were placed there by Members of the Opposition."

I am not certain whether I have the numbers quite accurately, but I believe they are very near the mark, and I should like to call the attention of the

posed to draw from these facts would have been that the abandonment of the Merchant Shipping Bill was not altogether unconnected with the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill; but I do not want to draw any inference at all. I would rather call the attention of the House to the words used in this House by the right hon. Gentleman himself. On Monday the 19th the right hon. Gentle

man told us that he would proceed with | in a somewhat modified shape. the Merchant Shipping Bill after the provision, that relating to the owner's Agricultural Holdings Bill had been foad line, is a provision which was not disposed of. On Thursday the 22nd-I included in the original proposal of the will read his own words-the right hon. Government, and which found its way Gentleman saidinto the re-committed Bill. Another Certainly it was shown to my satisfaction provision relating to the loading of grain that if we could have got through the Committee in bulk does not find a place in their on the Agricultural Holdings Bill this week we proposals, either in the Government Bill might have succeeded in passing the Merchant or in the re-committed Bill. Another, Shipping Bill without detaining the House to which is due to the hon. and learned an unreasonable period. In that we have been disappointed; and, therefore, I have to say-and Member for Durham (Mr. Herschell) I say it with unfeigned and unaffected regret relating to the punishment of officers that it is impossible for Her Majesty's Govern- under the Act, was not included, I bement to continue their efforts to pass the Mer-lieve, in either of the proposals of the chant Shipping Bill this Session."-[3 Hansard, ccxxiv. 1820-21.]