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late ministers had tended to indispose that the Russians, who had most unjust power towards this country; and, with re- charged, by the present minste spect to the Orders in Council of Nov. having unnecessarily put an end o last, he maintained their necessity, policy, test which, if continued, cozis on and expediency, and saw no reason to be- been attended with additional d lieve, that any intelligence of them could The facts of the case had been n arrive in America, so as to operate at the more notorious than he could be seat of government, in contributing to pected them to have been. At du produce the embargo.

the contest assumed something Lord Grenville observed, that were it not doubtful appearance; but when ei that ministers were eager to catch at any into, these appearances were her thing which could enable them to avoid completely fallacious. The nic the particular subject under consideration, ficer (lord Hutchinson) on wiciel and to distract the attention of their lord - in this case, the late governmen

: A ships, they would never have wandered so disposed to place a great deal di : much from the point as to enter upon the had at first suggested that some discussion of the merits of the conduct of tion might be of use. But when the late government towards Russia. visited the scene of action, he thes They having adverted to that, however, diately saw that the idea of m : he might be allowed to say a few words from us would be of no adre. by way of reply. Assurances of aid, it had accordingly said, " for Goe was said, had been given to Russia, which don't send a man: they can be :: were not followed up by corresponding here, and most probably not on efforts. Where did that appear? Russia can ever get back again.”—In might naturally be anxious to obtain, but his noble friend, the ministers baie it was for the government of this country upon a discussion of the effect of to consider whether it ought to promise or der in Council of the 7th of Jan : to grant. The whole correspondence was ance of their plan of arcidin e a series of refusals—refusals justified in more particularly before them every view of sound policy by the then proposition of his noble.friend kers situation of affairs. With respect to the to do with that, nor with the refusal of the loan, his lordship stated, that in Council generally. It miye the late government had seen no hopes of them so far as they affected or such adrantages resulting from a gompli- with America, and to this point :: ance as would counterbalance the addi- friend had confined hiuseli

, in tional pressure on the people which it that they would be attended with would occasion, if granted in the manner pernicious consequences to this solicited. It was required that it should The evidence which had been gire be raised at 5 per cent. and that it should bar, had been called by be guaranteed by parliament. Was there ous speculations. Whether them any man who could say that this was a of ministers, who said that there requisite which ought to have been com- would be beneficial to our coma plied with? With regard to the point of the evidence of those practically co-operation, he said, that whoever con- ed; who affirmed, that they wa sidered the state of the contending parties structive to it, were most to be co at the time, coolly and dispassionately, he would leave their lordships to must be convinced, that it would have But his noble friend had enly at been madness to have sent an army to the that evidence for the sake of a continent. It was not money that Russia had been proved beyond the posi". wanted, nor the comparatively feeble aid contradiction; that the intelligen which we could have sent her. The re- Orders in Council had reached 2 sources of that great empire had not be previous to the embargo. Since ** fore been well organized : France had had been known to one individu from the other corner of Europe met. have been in the possession of te Russia with equal or superior numbers on mercial interest in general, and by her own frontiers ; France had for 17 ed America through a variety . years been engaged in war, and there was and this he understood actory a difference, therefore, in the experience been the case. The embarros of the officers and the soldiers. These been the

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the Lord Grenville observed, that were it not do that ministers were eager to catch at any thing which could enable them to avoid the particular subject under consideration, fic and to distract the attention of their lord in ships, they would never have wandered so d much from the point as to enter upon the discussion of the merits of the conductor the late government towards Russ They having adverted to that, how he might be allowed to say a few by way of reply. Assurancesa was said, had been given to Ru were not followed up by cr efforts. Where did that ar Jawhich pur might naturally be anxio it was for the governme to consider whether it to grant. The whol a series of refusa' every view of sc

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pear of such consequence to America, as measures of hostility which she would not to induce her to undergo the hardships otherwise have recourse to. which she must feel from this measure. vernments understood the interests of their It was a matter of substantive charge, too, respective countries, war might still be against ministers, that they had not ex- avoided. America would consult her plained the Order of the 7th of Jan. to the dignity by acting directly contrary to the Americans, so far as related to the dis- spirit manifested by our government, by charge of cargoes at one port, and taking offering explanation, by seizing every in others at other ports. They knew the opportunity of negotiation, and by emmeaning of the Order in this respect, and ploying the most conciliating language, if they had been desirous of conciliating while there was a chance that war could America, they would have explained it. be avoided. It was a most inconvenient With regard to the treaty lately negotiat- circumstance, that negotiation proceeded ed, that was now before the house, and while the embargo continued ; but still he the members of the late government would was glad that negotiation was going on. be ready to enter upon the discussion of If ministers, convinced of their error, its merits, when the subject should be should renew the relations.of amity bespecifically brought under consideration. tween the two countries, they would not The manner in which the negotiation on be reproached from that side of the house that treaty had been put an end to was with inconsistency. He concluded by most internperate and absurd. Nothing expressing his perfect concurrence in the had been more common than to suspend resolutions. ratification, in order, if possible, to have Lord Hawkesbury expressed his belief, something added, omitted, or altered. that there was some ground for expecta

, The instances of this were innumerable ; tion in Russia that she would receive some and he affirmed, that no men of sound assistance from this country. As to the judgment, being at the same time desirous exact nature or amount of that assistance, of conciliation, could have put an end to it was not for him to determine what it the negotiation in the manner minişters might have been; whether an expedition had done. He was glad that now, how- ought to have been sent to this point or ever, the conviction began to prevail the other, or at what precise period of the among the people, and even with the go- year it ought to have been equipped. A vernment, that the neutrality of America noble lord had dwelt with peculiar force was advantageous to this country. Every upon the circumstance of a loan having one knew with what industry ridiculous been refused by this country to be granted opinions had been circulated, that we to Russia. He lamented as sincerely as should lose less by a war with America that noble lord, the burthens to which the than we did by her neutrality, because people of this country were necessarily our commerce was carried on in her ship- subjected; but, though it might not suit ping instead of our own. The very ad- the convenience of the country to advance vantage to us was, that our commerce was six millions as a loan or subsidy to Russia, by means of American shipping carried was the government of this country to on with the enemies colonies and ports, consider itself so far restricted by the

prointo which British ships would not be ad- position of an advance to that amount mitted. He would not enter into the par- being made to us, that it was not at ticulars of the calamities which might re- liberty to say what sum it could afford, sult from a war with America in our pre- or what amount of money the nation sent situation; the loss of our trade with would advance towards the support of the the continent; the loss of the supplies to common cause of Europe? This, he conthe West Indies; the loss to our own home tended, ought to have been done ; for, on manufactures, &c.; but it was obvious, Russia, and on the assistance that it receivthat it would be a most serious calamity. ed, in order to enable it the more effeca Still, he advised no concession inconsistent tually to resist that overwhelming power with the honour of the country, in the which had now almost deluged the contiproper sense of the term. But honour and nent, depended the welfare of almost every dignity consisted not in holding haughty other state. If Russia had received suffilanguage with a friendly power. Fie cient assistance, the emigration of the agreed with the noble lord who spoke court of Lisbon might have been prelast, that nothing said in that house could vented; and if Russia had been properly have the effect of driving America into supported, it might not have been neces, Vol. X.

4 N

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

bary to have made the late attack upon side. He particularly insisted, that it

. Copenhagen, which had been so much the would appear, from the evidence which subject of complaint.—There was another either now was, or would soon be, in the point to which their lordships' attention possession of each individual of that house, was particularly called ; namely, the pro- that the substance of our Orders in Counbable effect which our Orders in Council cil was known in America, before the laywould have on the government of America, ing on of the embargo in that country, a the degree of irritation which they would fact which was also apparent from this be likely to occasion in the minds of that circumstance, that a description of the people, or, in short, how far they would be enactments of these Orders in Council was likely to affect the relations, political or given in an American paper some concommercial, of the two countries recipro- siderable time previous to the laying on of cally. At present, he would not tell all that the embargo. came within his knowledge on that subject, The question was then put on the first neither would their lordships think it be- Resolution, when the house divided : Concoming in him, if, pending a negociation, he tents

, 25: Non-contents, 53. Majority, were, in bis place in that house, publicly to 28.- The other Resolutions were put, and announce the whole amount of whatever negatived without any

division. information he might obtain elsewhere, by means of his official situation. But, this much he could assure their lordships, that, notwithstanding the apprehension which

Tuesday, March 29. some noble lords might have upon that [Danish Fleet.] Lord Folkestone rose, point, and notwithstanding the alarm which pursuant to notice, to submit to the house appeared to be entertained elsewhere, he a motion on the subject of the Danish could assure their lordships, that no such Fleet. He professed himself to be one of disagreable sensation was occasioned in those who had approved of the expedition America by the promulgation of these against Copenhagen ; but, the frivolous Orders in Council. A noble lord, how- manner in which that expedition had been ever, had stated, that it was proved at the since defended by his majesty's minibar that such was their effect; but this he sters, had contributed considerably to begged leave to contradict, and in so doing shake his original opinion upon the queshe believed the house would eventually see tion. When the expedition was underthat he was warranted by the facts as they taken, he thought it warranted as a meawould be hereafter disclosed. They had sure of self-defence on our part, considernot a statement to that effect, but a specu- ing the situation of the continental powlative opinion of an interested merchant at ers at that time, and the probability there their lordships' bar. With respect to the was of the Danish Fleet being added to treaty that had been referred to, he had to the other acquisitions of France.

He inform their lordships, that the reason it confessed, that so strong an act as this had not been so speedily ratified as might was, could only be justified by a most have been expected, was, that an alteration pressing emergency; and, therefore, it had been made in it; not a trivial alteration seemed to him that we were called upon or addition, but a most substantive and by every principle of equity as well as of complete deviation from the principles policy, not to appropriate the Fleet to ourupon which that treaty was originally selves in perpetuity ; but to restore it, as agreed to: to the final execution of a do- soon as that could be done consistently cument so altered, some resistance was na- with the maintenance of our own security. turally given; but there was good reason He was aware, that a proposition had been to believe, as indeed he wished, and no made to Denmark to restore it, provided doubt every noble lord who heard him the Danish government would consent wished, that America must shortly have a voluntarily to surrender it into our custoproper sense of its own interest; and noble dy; but this proposition was so degrading lords must see, that this was not to be ob- in its nature, that it could not be expected tained by a tame acquiescence in every that the Danish government would accept fear or alarm with which weak or interest-of it, and he was .of opinion, thạt that ed individuals might endeavour to impress people ought not to be placed in a worse their lordships.

situation, than if such a proposition had Lord Holland replied to the arguments never been either made by. us or rejected and assertions of noble lords on the other by them. If we were to retain the possession of the Fleet in perpetuity, he was fact adding to the means and naval reafraid that it might be alleged, that the sources of France: that his majesty's faithproposition was made merely to obtain a ful commons believe and hope that such pretext for following up a hard but neces- a conduct, as it will be perfectly in unison sary measure, by an act of injustice. His with the moderate and disinterested views lordship concluded with moving, “That which his majesty entertains, so it will an humble Address be presented to his make manifest to Europe, that while the majesty, to assure his majesty, that his enemy is actuated by views of ambition, faithful commons, anxious that justice aggrandizement, and conquest, his mashould at all times be done to the up- jesty will never be irritated by his examright views which direct his majesty's ple, nor induced by the possession of conduct towards other powers, are desir- power, wantonly to attack the independous of warding off a suspicion, howeverence of other nations ; that his sole wish groundless, that the late attack of Copen- is to obtain for himself and his people sehagen was made less with a view of avert-curity and repose ; and that if in the puring an immediate and pressing danger, suit of these objects he is ever unfortuthan for the purpose of permanently ap- nately compelled to adopt measures conpropriating to the use of this country a trary to the interest of those states with great increase of naval means : that his which he is desirous of maintaining therefaithful commons observe that his majes- lations of peace, he will yet seize the earty, not imputing hostile designs to the liest opportunity, consistent with the hoking of Denmark, but apprehensive lesinour of his crown and the safety of his he should not be able to resist the attack dominions, to heal the wounds which he about to be made on him by France for may have involuntarily given, and to the purpose of getting possession of his make reparation for the injury which, in fleet and arsenal, was willing in the first defending his rights against the unjust atinstance to enter into negotiations with tacks of the enemy, he may have been him, and to agree to take his fleet in de necessitated to inflict.” posit until the restoration of peace, and Mr. Brand expressed much regret at that it was only after all proposals to that seeing so thin an attendance upon a diseffect had been rejected that operations cnssion of so much importance. Upon were commenced for the purpose of secu- the question of the Copenhagen expedition, ring it by force of arms: that his faithful he had all along differed with those with commons humbly submit to his majesty, whom he was in the habit of agreeing that it was hardly to be expected that an upon most political questions. He thought independent sovereign should consent to that expedition justifiable upon every acknowledge by a public instrument his principle of national and public law; but inability to defend his territory and capi- the grounds of defence which had been tal; and that therefore it is by no means a adopted by his majesty's ministers, he had matter of wonder that he should reject the no hesitation in pronouncing to be wholly proposal so offered to him: that he should untenable. A nation was certainly enendeavour to repel the attack made on him titled to seize upon any instrument of to enforce it, and by a declaration of war hostile attack which was in the hands of a resent and attempt to revenge it, when weak neutral, and which was likely to the attack proved successful : that his fall into the hands of a powerful enemy, majesty's faithful commons therefore trust and to be used by him for the purposes of that his majesty, making due allowance further aggression. And, this being infor the feelings which may fairly be sup- controvertibly a general principle, perposed to have actuated the court of Den- fectly consonant to the law of nations, he mark on this occasion, will not be indu- contended, that there wever were circumced, by any acts of hostility thus pro- stances which more loudly called for its voked, to forget the terms which his ma application, than those in which this counjesty first offered, and which seem to be try stood in relation to France and Denall that the necessity of the case, and the mark, when we took possession of the safety of his dominions, required; and that Danish fleet. But, having gone thus far he will still be ready to fulfil them on his in justifying the measure, he argued that part, whenever the restoration of peace, the same reasons which rendered it neand the state of the continental powers cessary and proper that we should take of Europe, hold out a fair and legitimate possession of the fleet for a time, did not hope that by so doing he will not be in make it either necessary or proper that

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