of Commons, because that House and their constituents had one common interest: for 12 millions of money were to be borrowed at the most enormous interest, and borrowed from members of parliament; so that that maxim of the representatives and represented having one and the sanie interest, was reversed: for the more mo nocent," yet withholds every means of information, by which his innocence might be proved: such conduct was always a strong presumption of guilt, nor could the noble lord's objection to produce the letters answer his purpose; for those he well knew were not private, they were public addresses, and should be open for the inspection of parliament. He was, how-ney was squeezed out of the people, the ever, not unwilling to believe his lordship higher interest could the minister afford to when he professed his own personal good give to their representatives for the use of intention; perhaps he might be ignorant their money. The 480,000l. out of which of the partialities that were practised; yet the minister had suffered the nation to be those did nevertheless exist, as he had cheated, was equal to one shilling in the every reason for believing, particularly in pound land-tax. He was exceedingly one instance, mentioned in a letter just sorry to see the noble lord object to the put into his hands; the writer of which he motion, since it seemed to be his inclinawould not nów name; having no express tion to sanctify the suspicions that had permission to do so, but he should have arisen in the breasts of men against that that liberty he doubted not to-morrow or House. When it was said, that the terms next day; mean-time he could assure of the loan were extravagantly high, and the House he was a person of im- that much more reasonable terms could portance and responsibility. He here have been procured, the noble lord was read a letter, in which the writer complain- supported by a number of gentlemen who ed of having applied so early as last No- were subscribers to that loan, and who, vember to have a part of the loan, for abandoned their duty as trustees for the which he had laid by 50,000l. and had not sake of their interest as money-lenders. had a single shilling of the subscription | They had voted to take the money out of allotted to him. This gentleman had long the pockets of their constituents to put it been a subscriber, and had been one of into their own, and had made bad terms those that suffered by the subscription for the people, in order to make good falling in its price so considerably as it terms for themselves This was the susdid, four years ago. He was now also in picion the noble lord justified by withthe truest sense of the word, a sufferer, holding the means of information. He because having really prepared the money wished the House to agree to the motion, to answer the event, he had lost the inte- to rescue parliament from the ignominy of rest of it. In the letter the writer sup- sacrificing the interest of the country to posed the noble lord had omitted his name, their own. The noble lord had said, that in order to give a preference to some per- if members of parliament were in the son more convenient to him in parliament. list of subscribers, they owed nothing to This, he said, evinced that men out of partiality; but surely the case of members doors thought that the noble lord used the and other men, could not admit of a comopportunity of distributing a loan to the parison. For the constituents were to pay favourite purpose of extending the influence for the loan; the representatives, as subof the crown. The noble lord had de- scribers, were to gain by it; and as they clared, that more than 54 per cent. would voted the money of their constituents out be too much for the money-lenders, and of their pockets into their own, it could yet the premium on scrip was this day 9 not be said, that they would support the per cent. The House knew well how to interests of the people against their own: value a declaration of impartiality, accom- but by forgetting their duty in the capapanied with a refusal to disclose the means city of parliamentary delegates, and acting of proving the greatest partiality. The upon the impulse of their capacity of conduct of members of parliament, who money-lenders, they would betray their had shares in the usurious new loan, was trust, and set up their own interest in opmost barefaced and shameful. It was position to that of their constituents. such as the noble lord in the blue ribbon would not be guilty of himself, however he might encourage it in others.-It could not now be said, that the affairs of the people were safe in the hands of the House Lord North said, that as to the bargain, he confessed he felt it to be too good, and he was very sorry for it; it was more than he would have consented to, if he could have foreseen what had happened. But partial, but refused the means by which alone his impartiality could be evinced. Let the names of such subscribers as were rejected be compared for responsibility with the names of those who were admitted; and, on the whole, let the principle be fairly pointed out on which a preference was given to the latter. After some further conversation, the House divided: Yeas 106; Noes 137. The third motion was negatived without a division. The Budget-New Taxes.] March 14. The House being in a Committee of Supply, as to the extraordinary premium of 480,000l. that gentlemen said had been gained by the subscribers, he could not admit that so much could be gained, when the 12 millions should have been fairly brought into market; that circumstance would undoubtedly lower the premium very considerably. With regard to the idea of extending the influence of the crown by means of a loan, if that argument was to be tried by the test of the present loan, he believed it would be found that he had made more enemies than friends by the list sent to the Bank; for though he was not conscious of having been at all to blame, or of having acted in the least with partiality, he was pretty certain, that the number of persons who were extremely angry with him for letting them have so little of the loan, was considerably greater than the number of those who were thankful for what he had given them. Mr. Hussey said, he had only a few words to say concerning lord North's declaration, that he was sorry at the advanced premium on the omnium. He was the first chancellor of the exchequer, he believed, who expressed a sorrow at the public credit of his country. Was this fit language? If the subscribers got 9 per cent. at market for the new loan, why should the noble lord be sorry, when it was a proof of the stability of the national credit? The noble lord had said, that if the subscribers should bring the whole loan to market, the premium would fall considerably; but was it for fear of such a catastrophe, that they kept their stock at home? No, certainly, but because they knew they could make more of it, by waiting some time. Lord North declared, that he never intended to imply that he was sorry the funds had risen; just the contrary; all he meant was, he was sorry that he had not foreseen that they would rise, and that the loan would bear so high a premium, that he might have made a better bargain. God knew, it would give him infinite satisfaction, if the funds in general rose in a much greater proportion than nine per cent. Mr. T. Townshend did not see how the House could avoid agreeing to the motion, whether he considered the obligation of the House to maintain their honour, or to do their duty to their constituents. He was astonished to hear the noble lord talking of his escrutoires, and his bureau. They were the public treasury of the kingdom. The noble lord declared he was im[VOL. XXI.] Lord North rose. Before he proceeded to submit the new taxes to the consideration of the Committee, he begged to make an observation or two on some expressions which came out in the course of the debate the last time he had the honour to address them. He was then asked, more than once, whether he intended to apply the annuities, which had fallen in at Christmas last, to make a provision for any part of the loan of the present year? "Because if he did, it was thought proper to remind him, that it would be a misapplication of the proper revenues designed to augment the sinking fund, and of course would amount to a breach of public faith; it would be diverting the monies properly belonging to that fund to uses for which it was never intended; it would defeat thevery ends for which the fund was first created and established; and it would be at the same time rendering the security of those who had lent their money on the credit of that fund more doubtful and precarious." These objections deserved an answer, and he would give each of them the best in his power. The annuities which had fallen in amounted to 190,000l. and at the time he opened the terms of the loan, he wished to feel whether or not, as far as that annual sum went, the House would prefer it as a provision in part for the payment of the new annuities, or whether they would prefer new taxes to that amount. As well as he could judge, the House seemed to prefer new taxes. If it was otherwise, he was mistaken; but as the House shewed no direct inclination to appropriate the annuities which had fallen in, he imagined he was well warranted in proposing new taxes in their place, and letting the old annuities go to augment the sinking fund. When he said this, however, he begged [4 S] leave to be understood as consulting the sense of the House, yet not altogether falling in with the ideas urged from gentlemen who declared themselves of this opinion. For although he acknowledged the propriety of doing every thing towards augmenting the produce of the sinking fund, because he foresaw that great and signal benefit might be derived from it by applying that produce to the reduction of the national debt, he was far from acquiescing in the arguments urged in order to prove that the application of the 190,000l. towards the payment of the new annuities, would amount to a breach of faith with the public creditors. He was clearly of a contrary opinion. He thought the public creditors had no demand whatever upon that sum, either direct or implied. Certain persons had lent their money upon a perpetual and a temporary annuity; the latter had fallen in, the former remained; consequently, whatever was designed for the payment of the temporary annuity reverted again to the public to make whatever use they might think proper of. The use now made of it came clearly within that description, and the sinking fund might be employed to the most beneficial purposes in lightening the public burdens. That was, however, at present, an object of mere speculation, not perhaps worthy the immediate attention of the House; but he mentioned it now, merely in the first place to show that he did not think the public creditors had any demand upon the annuity thus fallen in, and likewise, though no operation of finance was now made upon that annuity, it was not because parliament had no right, or could not with propriety take it and employ it to that purpose, but because it was not necessary, and that new taxes, in the present instance, were preferred to it. He reminded the committee, that he had promised to submit to their consideration efficient and substantial taxes, such as had been tried and found to answer, and such, of course, as the public creditors might securely trust to; and also that they should be general taxes to be raised upon the body of the people at large, and upon the best of all funds, that of internal consumption. He meant too, that they should be so laid as to affect the luxuries, and avoid the conveniences and actual necessaries of life as much as possible. In great operations, when large sums were wanted for the exigencies of the state, partial taxes, however promising, were precarious, because, whatever the object was on which the tax was laid, it might perhaps be dispensed with; or if not, the promised produce greatly lessened, indeed beyond all expectation. In general consumption it was the very reverse; a few might retrench, but it would be ever a few. Besides, when the duty imposed was trivial, it removed all temptation, so that in considering the system of taxation, as a necessary evil, in a country like this, he should ever think that species of duties the best, which went to articles of general and internal consumption, and when they were not so heavy as to affect the commerce, nor so framed as to fall on particular descriptions of men. He should then think that the real principle and end of taxation was preserved, that of its being equal and productive. The first tax he said he would propose, was, an additional 5 per cent. on the duties of excise, excepting the brewery, hides, soap and candles. By this he meant the nett produce, clear of all the expences of collection, and every other expence and defalcation whatever. This was a duty which, by the experience of two years, we knew to be productive; and by the effect which that tax had had in its operation, there was the most convincing proof of its propriety. It had been borne by the subject without complaint; it had not, in any one article, diminished the consumption; and it was, upon the whole, one of the most eligible, because it was one of the most even and least burthensome duties that could be laid. In 1779, he proposed a similar tax, and found that it was not only productive, but that it had been borne without inconvenience to any of the articles, or any of the subjects affected by it; he should compute the present at the same sum. To explain what he meant, it would be necessary for him to go somewhat into detail. In the tax of 1779, beer, soap, candles and hides, had been excepted out of the tax of 5 per cent. because those taxes would be drawn chiefly from the lower and laborious orders of the people. The last year he had proposed a tax upon the private brewery, or upon malt used in the private brewery, of 6d. per bushel, which, as far as he could learn, turned out extremely productive. He had likewise added a tax of 5 per cent. on the produce of that tax, so that beer brewed in the private brewery had two malt taxes upon it, and the public. १. the consumer. These were articles necessary to manufacture, and which came immediately upon the poor; the additional duty on these articles would produce a very small sum to the exchequer, but a duty would give a pretence for raising the price of the commodities to the purchaser. It had therefore been the policy of parliament, ever since the reign of king William, to except these articles from additional duties. The whole duty on these articles would amount to no more than 32,000l. and for this sum the public would be taxed, no doubt, to a very considerable amount. Upon these general ideas, as well as the particular reasons which he had mentioned, he meant, with the consent of the committee, to exempt beer, soap, leather, and candles, from the imposition of 5 per cent. upon all other exciseable commodities; and as this tax had been already tried, and was found to be fully equal to the sums with which it had been charged the last year, he would in full confidence take it for the sum of 150,000l. malt-tax of 1779, amounted to 15 per cent. When this duty was laid two years ago, the brewery had been omitted, and there were several reasons why it should still be so. The committee would reflect, that he had already stated that the several articles in the brewery had been liable to the additional duty. There had been 5 per cent. on the hops, 5 per cent. on the 15d. malt, and 5 per cent. on the 8s. beer; and he knew if he put even a fraction of a farthing on strong beer, that commodity would be raised a halfpenny, so that the tax must come immediately to the lip of the consumer, and that, too, in no proportion to the sum that would come into the public coffers. The two taxes which he had mentioned affected (he would allow in a small degree) the common brewer, but the low price of barley enabled him to brew as good beer under the trifling increase now, and a better than he could a few years back, before the additional duties were imposed; but supposing now that he should propose a tax only of half a crown or less a barrel, the brewer would probably raise the price to the consumer The next object of taxation was the a halfpenny per pot, so that if a necessity customs, which he meant likewise to comshould hereafter arise for laying an addi-pute at the net produce. When the 5 tional duty upon strong beer, the brewer per cent. was imposed, he took the gross would stand in the place of the state. receipt, which amounted to about 2 per But that was not all; the brewer, if a cent. on the net receipt. The net produce small duty were imposed, would either of the customs, after all deductions, drawraise the beer an halfpenny per pot, or he backs, &c. amounted to 2,391,665l. He would effect his purpose in a more indirect said that a reformation was considered as manner. At all events, as applying to necessary in the mode of collection of the In its present the people, or as a mere matter of finance, custom-house revenue. he thought it much better, as he had done in 1779, to exempt the strong beer out of the excises, to prevent either the commodity from being of a worse kind, or in case of a rise, to prevent the brewers from raising on the consumer what more properly belonged to the state; for upon computation it was found, that only one halfpenny per pot would raise a sum no less than one million per annum from the people. As to the duties upon candles, soap, and leather, he omitted them likewise, when the last 5 per cent. was laid on; they would certainly produce a very considerable sum; but here, as in the tax upon beer, he was cautious on two accounts; he wished that the general tax should press but as little as possible, where the object to be taxed came within the description of the necessaries of life; but more particularly, when the duty imposed, be it ever so trifling, would be raised in a three or four-fold degree upon form it was loaded with many difficulties and embarrassments, and gave so much trouble both to the collectors and to the merchants, that it had long been considered as a very necessary subject of reformation. These difficulties arose from the variety of duties, subsidies, and imposts that had been laid from time to time, the many distinct heads on which every duty was to be collected, and also on account of the discounts which were alllowed under various acts, and under various heads. So complex a system was it, as to be liable to innumerable errors; indeed it was so much so, that the merchant, who was to pay the duties, hardly knew what he had a right to pay, or those who were to collect the duty what to charge. It was such a complicated piece of machinery, that almost every thing concerning it was transacted in the dark. If it was so under the eye of the board, it was still worse in the out-ports, where every thing led to confusion. A small error begat a hundred more, and there was more time lost in correcting the errors of others, than in transacting the real business. There were so many drawbacks, bounties, discounts, &c. that no one man could fairly say he was a master of the subject; several attempts had been made to simplify this complex business, but in vain; much still depended upon chance, and great exertions of abilities and industry were called for, but they scarcely ever proved successful. Many ingenious men had turned their thoughts to it, and the difficulties of the collector were considerably removed by the books of rates that had been published; yet they could not be depended upon in all cases. Several plans had been thought of, to remove the inconveniences in this respect. One was by consolidating the customs, and reducing the several duties into one. Another mode that was thought of was, by simplifying the duties, and abolishing the discounts, which were the chief causes of the difficulties and errors. Such a plan he trusted would be presented to parliament for their approbation. In the mean time he proposed, instead of laying an additional duty of 5 per cent. on the customs, as one of the duties for producing the annuity wanted, to strike off and abolish the discounts in the customs; this he calculated to be equal to a duty of 7 per cent. This operation of finance, while its professed object was the raising a certain sum of money for the use of the state, would, he trusted, as a beginning, assist in simplifying an abstruse study. It was a beginning, and he hoped, would prove a useful one; at all events, it would tend to remove some of the obstacles, and, he made no doubt, would, in the end, lead to something more clear and specific. As he observed before, there was this duty paid-that sum drawn back-this security given-that tax modified or increased: this created fractions without number; there were of, and so on ad infinitum. These were again split, compounded, and decompounded, till the mind was bewildered-till it was almost impossible to know what to charge on one hand, or what to deduct out of that charge on the other. If any thing could add to this perplexity, it was the nature of the several duties, and the conditions on which they were imposed. There were the old and new subsidy; the discounts; there was the impost of 1690, in king William's time; there were the duties of 1728, 1746, and 1759. There was, again, the application of these several duties to the different commodities which were the object of them: in short, he wanted words to convey the distraction and confusion such a variety of objects occasioned. The discounts upon 2,391,6651. he calculated to produce 167,416. which he said would amount to about 7 per cent. upon an average, of all the duties; and he was inclined to take this method in preference to any other, because, whenever the plan was adopted for simplifying those duties, and introducing a new system in the collection, this must be one of the branches of reform. Though the discounts would amount to 7 per cent. upon the whole, yet the commodities in general would undergo an addition of much less than that sum. It would not be necessary for him to state the whole of the articles of custom-house duties, in order to convince the House, that this reduction of discounts would produce the sum of 167,000l. But he would state four articles which would give them a full idea of the whole, tobacco, sugar, wine and tea, were the commodities on which discounts were principally allowed. The discount upon sugar and teas was 2. Upon wines it was 41. 16s. per tun, which was about 11 per cent. and the discount upon tobacco was 17 per cent. when bonded, and 20 per cent. prompt payment. The average quantity of wine consumed in this kingdom in the year, was 15,000 tuns, the discount on which would produce 72,000l. The quantity of tobacco consumed was 8,500,000 lb. the discount on which would produce 49,2831. The quantity of tea was 5,000,000; but here the discount, as an object of taxation, was very trifling, on account of the other allowances made to the East India Company, which it was not his wish to discontinue. The quantity of sugar consumed was 1,400,000 cwt. and the discount on that, he said, was 13,125. Upon the whole, therefore, he stated, that the discounts on the custom-house duties would bring in 174,991/.;, which was 7,5751. above the sum of 167,316/. which was what he had taken them at in his calculation towards the annuity. He said that the merchants would not perhaps wish to purchase an exemption from the embarrassments of the discounts at so dear a rate as 7 per cent, but when it was debated between a |