out striking a blow, he could not suffer any consciousness of his own inability to do justice to the subject, to prevent him from bringing it under consideration. The navy had been managed in a manner so unaccountably impotent and extravagant, that something must be done. We could not go on in the same wild and wanton track, without system, without œconomy, without exertion, and without success. He trusted that this would be but the first of a series of enquiries, from which such wholesome reformations might be made, as might tend to the permanent beHe wished to arrange Debate on Mr. Minchin's Motion respecting the State of the Navy, Dock Yards, &c.] March 25. Mr. Minchin said, he could not decline bringing the present state of the navy before the House, because delicate people might fear it would prove dangerous to our future operations. He thought there was no ground for such fear. He considered that the greatness,nefit of the state. commerce, and trade of this country, entirely depended upon her navy, not even such a navy as would defend her coasts, or such as might stand a comparison with any other foreign power, but a marine force superior to that of the whole House of Bourbon. When the naval superiority of this country came to be seriously disputed with us, it was time to look about and to be alarmed, and make the most spirited exertions in order to turn the balance in our favour. It was agreed on all hands, that the navy of Great Britain, on which the very existence of this country depended, and which had lately been the sovereign of the ocean, was now so mutilated and depressed, that that sovereignty was lost, even without striking a blow. We had, it was true, beaten the Spaniards last winter twelvemonth. We had triumphed over the Dutch, and were superior to our enemies in the West Indies; but that was but a partial superiority; a superiority liable every day to be wrested from us. France had been, and must shortly be again, superior to us in those seas; but the circumstance which filled him with equal grief and astonishment was, that we had been inferior at home, in the Channel and the Bay; in each of which places we had been obliged to fly from a superior and flying enemy. The fact was notorious, in our own channel, in view of our own coasts. It was no less so last winter. Here he did not speak from common hearsay. The first lord of the Admiralty had acknowledged, that admiral Darby had but 17 men of war of the line under his command when the advanced frigates got sight of the French, consisting of 38, if not 44. Now, what was 19 or 29, when opposed to 38 or 44? Nothing. Therefore, when he considered that this empire, formerly deemed the sovereign of the sea, had lost that title with the topics of consideration under different In the former and that this sum should be more than the estimates given; but for all the application the commissioners should be obliged to account. This would simplify the expence, and would take away the suspicions which lay against the commissioners in the present practice of the board. There were two assertions that had been made, both of which he should venture flatly to deny, and these were, that the navy of England could only be encreased to a certain point, and that it had reached that point already. He was aware, that these assertions were founded on an idea, that after the navy was increased to the degree that our navy was increased at present, neither more ships, nor more men, were to be procured. This he was as ready to contradict, as he was to deny the other; and for the best reason in the world, because he was convinced that both ships and men might be had, if the proper exertions were made by the board of Admiralty, and discipline was restored to the navy. It was with singular pleasure, that he had lately heard a motion from a noble lord, for an increase of the number of marines. That was a certain way to get sailors. Let any gentleman move to vote for 20,000 more marines, and he would second the motion. The marines were the corps, which, if properly encouraged, would prove most valuable nurseries for our seamen, a never failing source that could not be sufficiently cherished. One great cause of the deficiency of the number of our seamen was the desertion, which far exceeded any thing of the kind last war. This must be cured by some means or other, or it would be impossible to have such a navy as could diminish, at least, if not destroy the marine of France. promise with the public, and that ships remained from year to year unfinished. There were many ships in the several dock-yards under this predicament. One of them only he would mention, and this was the Narcissus, a sloop building in Plymouth dock-yard. In the estimate for 1777, 3,000l. was required for completing the Narcissus; and in a note added to the article it was declared, that she would be finished in the month of May of that year. In 1778, so far from being finished, she wanted more than she did before, and 4,000l. was given to complete her. In 1779 the Narcissus still stood on the stocks, all the former money was gone, and a still larger sum was yet wanted to give her the finishing stroke. 5,000l. was now granted, and still she was promised to be finished. Another year came, however, and brought with it, as usual, the Narcissus; 5,040. were now given, and not a stroke had been given to her from that time to this. This was a single instance, out of the many, that appeared upon the estimates, of the conduct of the commissioners in this respect. Perhaps it would be said, that though the money was voted for the specific purpose of repairing certain ships, yet it might have been applied to other purposes more immediately necessary to the service, and which were not foreseen at the time that the estimates were laid before the House. This was the pretext, he knew, which had always been given for this irregular proceeding; but, in his opinion, it was not an exculpation. An account should be given to the House of the application of that money. It should be specified how it was expended, that the House might have the satisfaction of knowing that it was not improperly wasted; that it was not put into the pocket of the first lord of the Admiralty, or that it was not, like old stores and shipping, sold for his benefit. He wished to see the practice in this case corrected, and for this purpose he meant to move for leave to bring in a Bill, by which he trusted a plan would be established more simple in its nature, and less liable to abuse. The principle of it was to provide that the commissioners in the several yards should be called upon to give an account upon oath of the sum of money that would be wanted for the several repairs and buildings to be undertaken in the year, and that such estimates should be laid before the House on their meeting, in order that a sum, in toto, should be granted for the whole of the navy service, He complained of the slow manner in which the men worked in the King's yards. He said, there were more ship-wrights employed in Deptford dock-yard, than in all the private ship-builders' yards upon the Thames put together, and reckoned in the aggregate: and yet it was notorious, that in Deptford yard the rule was, to build one ship of war and two frigates in a twelvemonth, whereas the private shipbuilders, notwithstanding the quantity of business which they did for the India company, for individuals who fitted out privateers, letters of marque, &c. and for the merchants, built for government eleven ships of war, besides frigates and lesser vessels, in the same time. This was owing to the total want of discipline in the King's yards of Deptford, Woolwich, Chatham, Sheerness, Portsmouth, Deal, and Harwich, on the 1st of January, with the names of the several officers in each yard." Sir George Yonge seconded the motion. The manner in which the navy estimates were presented to that House called loudly for some regulation. As the estimates were now managed, it was impossible for any person to know how much we were spending, or how much longer we could support the war. It would perhaps amaze the House, but we were expending upon our navy 50,000l. a day! With regard to what his hon. friend had said relative to the slowness with which our ships of war were built, it certainly was greatly to be lamented, and ought to be avoided. France, it was obvious, avoided it, for there was one remarkable instance that had come to his knowledge; and that was, the Ville de Paris, which was so crippled in the action of the 27th of July, that she was with difficulty towed into port, and there obliged to undergo a thorough repair; nay, her very keel was taken out, and a new one put in; so that she was almost entirely new, when the workmen had done with her; and yet this very Ville de Paris that went into dock a shattered, and almost totally ruined 90 gun ship in the beginning of August, turned out of dock in the April following an almost complete new 100 gun man of war. yards, and to an idea, which though he | knew it was a received maxim in shipbuilding, he could not but controvert, viz. the idea that the longer a ship continued in her frame, with her sides uncovered, the better, and the more durable the ship would be when finished. Tender as the ground was upon which he was treading, he nevertheless, would venture to step firmly, and to assure the House, that he had the evidence of his senses to support him in his assertion. There were, at this time, two ships which had cost the public very large sums indeed, that had remained in their frames till the timbers absolutely became rotten, and were forced to be taken out of them; he meant the Royal Sovereign, at Plymouth, and the Warrior, at Portsmouth. The former was so bad from decay, that even her keel was forced to be taken away, and a new one put in its stead. These two ships, then, were proofs of the truth of what he asserted, and might serve as a stimulus to covering in ships of war sooner, by which means they would be got ready for sea much more expeditiously, and the country be served more effectually. He might adduce many other instances of a similar nature, but he mentioned those only to shew, that the system of continuing ships so long on the frame, and afterwards so long on the stocks, answered none of the ends which had been so pompously held forth; he should therefore wish that the ships were run up on Sir Charles Bunbury said he could not the spur of the occasion, in order that a rise to speak on so interesting a subject sudden force might be produced: and he without returning his thanks to the hon. was convinced that the more expeditious gentleman who had brought it on, and method which the French had of complet-thereby rescued the House from the ining their ships was infinitely more proper putations it had lain under, for having on and useful. He had conversed with some the day of the naval estimates neglected of the most experienced shipwrights in the important consideration of the fleet of England on the subject, and he was ena- England, in order to enter into a discusbled to say, on their judgments, that after sion of what had been sufficiently discussed a ship had stood in the frame through the before, and in full as proper a place; the changes of the wet and dry seasons, that unfortunate conduct of a much censured was for a year, the longer she stood after though highly rewarded vice-admiral. An that time, she received more injury than imputation which the parliament of Great benefit. He then proposed two motions, Britain never could have incurred, had it the first was, "That leave be given to not been led away by that violent spirit of bring in a Bill for the better and more party, which, at the same time that it ineffectual making up and laying before par- flames the passions of the weak, perverts liament, the accounts of the sums expend- the reason of the wise; that baneful and ed for building, rebuilding, and repairs of malignant spirit which preys upon the vitals his Majesty's ships of war in his Majesty's of this enfeebled country, which damps dock-yards and other dock-yards in Great its ardour, which cripples its exertions, Britain." This motion he intended to and which threatens its destruction, even follow with another, "That there be laid more than the combined force of its forbefore this House an account of the num- midable adversaries, by proscribing from ber of shipwrights employed in the dock-its service, at this hour of difficulty and peril, the ablest and most distinguished of its citizens. Sir Charles said he was astonished at having heard a right hon. gen. tleman some time ago boast that we had 300,000 men in arms, which was more than Louis 14 had. Instead of this he would have done better to have referred the House to the example of Louis 16, who was wisely using every means in his power to render his marine respectable and powerful. That example was worthy of our imitation. If the destruction of the marine of our enemies was the great object we were to pursue, and the only means of attaining what we all most ardently wished for, an honourable and lasting peace; that object, he contended, could only be observed by augmenting the power of the marine of England. Here sir Charles urged the propriety of employ. ing those of the most distinguished abilities in the department of the Admiralty, and reprobated the conduct of the present commissioners, from the beginning of the war to the present hour, stating the evils that had accrued to the country from their want of foresight, diligence, and conomy; an instance of the latter, he proved from the papers on the table, that the whole expence of the navy for the year 1762 (the most costly of the late war) amounted to 6,308,2057. whereas that for the year 1780, came to 8,853,2491. That was above two millions and a half more, though in 1762 we had $9 ships of the line, and in 1780 only 86. Sir Charles took notice of the war with Holland, and declared he knew not how he was to account for it. The spirited and cheerful North Briton might rejoice at it, and promise himself a rich and golden harvest, but as an East Briton, as the representative of a large manufacturing county, which touched not an ear of the precious corn, which reaped only a crop of thistles, an accumulation of grievous taxes, who mourned the event, and daily felt its fatal consequences; he must beg leave to deplore it as a melancholy circumstance. It was a poor comfort to his constituents to be told, that there were people in the island of St. Eustatius as miserable as themselves. The adventurers in privateers, and those who were concerned in letters of marque, might rejoice at it; they had, he heard, taken many Dutch vessels, but he had not yet heard of their getting any Dutch cargoes. The ships they had hitherto taken were chiefly freighted with English property, with the property of their next door neighbours. He rejoiced as heartily as any man at the success of his Majesty's arms. The capture of St. Eustatius, considering that we had forced Holland to join the number of our foes, was an important event; how far it would prove a glorious one, depended altogether on the use that might be made of it. If it inflamed the arrogance of the British ministry, if it induced them to use more lordly and haughty language, when they were treating for peace, it would be a melancholy prize; if, on the other hand, it was properly used, it would be a truly valuable capture. He advised his noble friend in the blue ribbon, not to suffer those commanders and proprietors of privateers, who had huzzaed him into the war with Holland, to prevent him from making peace. He knew his benevolent and pacific disposition would induce him to do what he had advised. He said, he used the word ' pacific,' because his noble friend's mind was peaceably inclined. The conciliatory propositions, which, in spite of the clamorous opposition both of his political friends and foes, he had with so much magnanimity, and so much to his own honour, brought into that House some few years back, as well as his having sent out commissioners to America, proved that he panted for peace. He conjured his noble friend, therefore, to use his endeavours to inspire his war-enamoured colleagues with the same pacific sentiments. He conjured him to be a warrior for peace; he would fight under his banner, and endeavour, by the abundance of his zeal, to atone for his lack of ability; but it was not only the slender aid of such bending willows as himself that he would acquire; he would likewise gain the powerful assistance of the most able and distinguished amongst us, the sturdy oaks who support this tottering constitution. his noble friend lose not a moment in so laudable, so expedient, so necessary a pursuit! In the mean time, "increase the navy." The phrase should be echoed in the noble lord's ear, from day to day. He added, Nay, I would have a starling taught to speak nothing but navy,' and present it to him, to keep his recollection still in motion. In order to do it, let every shipwright in the kingdom be employed; and let the industry of the workmen in the royal dock-yards, be extracted by every possible means; let it be encouraged by emoluments, let their sloth be driven away by the terror of punishment. Let To forward the great work, let every | marines as possible. The desertions joiner and carpenter in the kingdom, every were astonishing, and shewed a want of man who knew the use of the adze and order and discipline somewhere. the chissel, be enlisted into the public service. Every man of this description might be made useful, and join in forwarding that great end, without the enter tainment of which, it was impossible to expect that war could be carried on with success. To prevent the alarming and unparalleled desertion which happened this war, he recommended the restoration of discipline in the navy, which had been much relaxed; he censured the pernicious custom of turning over men to different ships, which made them take a disgust to the service; and he urged the necessity of augmenting the corps of marines, and empowering the captains of ships to rate the marines as seamen, when they knew the business, without obliging them to repay the bounty-money as heretofore. Mr. Penton said, that the objections in regard to the Narcissus, were founded on a matter which had been explained to the House over and over again. When a service arose suddenly and pressed, the men were taken from their regular work to that particular duty. In case of a hurricane, the ships that suffered must be immediately refitted; therefore, parliament was resorted to again for another provision. The workmen did as much as it was possible for them to do, and as many hands were employed as could be found. He denied there was more work done in the private yards than in the King's yards of Deptford and Woolwich joined; he had the last year's accounts in his hands, 350,000l. had been paid to private builders, and 420,000l. to Deptford and Woolwich. He said that in 1739, parlia ment had negatived a similar motion; he should oppose the motion as nugatory. Admiral Keppel gave it as his opinion, that if the French and Spanish fleets joined, and a battle ensued, the consequences would be disastrous to this country. He recommended having as many Sir Hugh Palliser accounted in a different way for that inferiority. He said that the family compact had convinced the rulers of the kingdom, that the greatest naval exertions would be necessary, to enable this country to maintain its superiority over the House of Bourbon; it was foreseen that whenever war should again break out with France, it would also break out with Spain at the same time: formerly we had to do with those powers alternately, not together; but the family compact gave reason to suppose that a rupture with one, would be immediately followed by a rupture with the other. Hence arose a necessity to make preparations for such an event; vast quantities of naval stores, the seeds of future navies, were purchased with those sums the parliament had voted; the dock-yards were absolutely crammed; and then a plan was formed, when he had the honour to preside at the Navy Board, for so regulating the proceedings of the workmen, as should enable us to avail ourselves effectually of the resources we had in store, and raise up a navy superior to those of France and Spain united; but the enemies of this country, conscious that with a great navy she must be victorious, intervened; sowed dissentions among our workmen, and poisoned them against this new plan. After some further conversation, the SMr. Minchin NOES {Earl of Lisburne Mr. Penton 45 147 So it passed in the negative. Mr. Minchin then said, that after the fate of his first motion, seeing that all desire of reform was at an end, he would not trouble the House with his second proposition. END OF VOL. XXI. 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