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and directly said "none," but it was not by any means consonant to his idea of the necessary enquiry. He had at the same time shewn the two motions he intended to offer to the noble lord; and he must do the noble lord the justice to say, he did not disapprove of them. The colonel then moved for an Account of all charges, fees, and perquisites, received by the of ficers at the Mint, on account of the late re-coinage. Also, for an Account of all the money received into the Exchequer, and by all the subordinate collectors and receivers of public money through the kingdom, up to the end of the year 1778, the year ending at Michaelmas: which were ordered.

Lord George Gordon's Motion for taking the Petitions of the good People of England into consideration.] Lord George Gordon was of opinion that the noble lord should make his motion then, in conformity to the prayer of the county petitioners, that reformation should precede taxation. The hon. gentleman, who had spoken last, had talked a good deal of reformation; and what did it all end in? In an attack upon poor Mat o' the Mint. Instead of being angry with the noble lord for bringing forward his commission of accounts before he opened the budget, he ought to have thanked him. For his part, he was so anxious to have the desire of the people' complied with, that he would then move "That this House do, on Thursday next, take into their most serious consideration, the humble and judicious prayers contained in the dutiful petitions of the good people of England."

Mr. James Luttrell seconded the motion, which was not relished by the House. Lord George Gordon seemed determined to divide; and when requested not to cause the gallery, which was very crowded, to be cleared, his lordship exclaimed warmly, I am determined to take the sense of the House. I have broken off from those with whom I used to vote, because I saw they were inconsistent, and drew different ways. For my part, Mr. Speaker, as soon as I broke from them, I got friends all over Scotland and England; and as consistency is my grand object, I will not be diverted from my purpose, as I then should be inconsistent with myself.

The order of the day being moved, the House divided. The Noes were directed to go forth.

Debate on the Motion for the Committal of Mr. Burke's Establishment Bill.] Mr. Burke then moved the second reading of the Bill," for the better Regulation of his Majesty's Civil Establishments, and of certain public offices; for the limitation of pensions, and the suppression of sundry useless, expensive, and inconvenient places; and for applying the monies saved thereby to the public service." The motion passed unanimously; but on another motion for committing the Bill, it was opposed by lord George Gordon, who divided the House, with more success than he had before, for as there was not room enough in the lobby to contain those who were obliged to go forth on the division, there were 90 who were obliged to remain within, and being numbered with his lordship made up 91 against committing the Bill.

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So it was resolved in the affirmative. Mr. Burke then moved, that the Bill be committed to-morrow.

Lord Beauchamp said it was very unusual for a Bill to go to a committee immediately after the second reading. It was necessary that all Bills, and especially those of great moment, should be proceeded through with caution. If this was the constant practice, how necessary was it to postpone going into a committee so soon as this day on a Bill of such magnitude, and in the event of which such a variety of individuals were deeply interested. From these circumstances, he recommended that the word "to-morrow" might be struck out, and "Wednesday next" substituted in its stead.

Lord Nugent was of the same opinion. His lordship animadverted on the petitions, and the tendency the opposition meant they should have, but verily believed there was not the cause set forth in them for

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complaining against government. The prerogative of the king, his lordship did not think any ways increased, and for his own part, he would not restore parliament to its independency by lessening the influence of the crown. By the influence of the crown, he meant a due and constitutional influence; the crown was to be independent, and the parliament was to be independent, but they were both to be dependent, in order to be independent, for that the one grew out of the other. He asked how could it be said, that the influence of the crown had been increased, thirteen colonies having been lost; the addition of new taxes, he denied to be a means of extending that influence. As to the Bill itself, there were parts of it he much approved, but so far as it tended to a diminution of the influence of the crown, he would most assuredly set his face against it. He reminded the House, that the minister had been uniformly supported by the country gentlemen throughout the war.

Lord North said, that the Bill was of the most complicated nature, and required such a mature consideration, that Wednesday was, in his opinion, as early a day for sending it to a committee, as the House could well think of appointing,

Mr. T. Townshend attacked the noble lord for the expression which fell from him, by which the House were a second time given to understand, that any attempt at a diminution of the influence of the crown was to be resisted. The noble lord in the blue ribbon (North) had some few days ago explicitly opened his mind upon the matter, but the noble lord he was replying to, had gone a great way farther; he had made no scruple to say, that he would not restore parliament to its independency by lessening the influence of the crown. He had been long in the most intimate friendship with the noble lord, or he would have called upon the Speaker to have taken down those words. As to the observation that the influence of the crown was surely not so great now as before government had lost thirteen colonies, he was very ready to admit, that if that had been a plan of the ministry, it had been effectually executed. But the noble lord had asked, if laying new taxes on the subject, could be thought to add to the influence of the crown? There were such things as tax-gatherers; and though the taxes might not, the tax-gatherers, he was sure, tended not a little to extend the power of government. The increase, too, that had been made in the military establishment, in the raising of new corps, and the appointment of officers to them, had both augmented the means of corruption, and shewn the real designs of those in power too plain to escape the notice of the House.

way.

Mr. Fox accused the minister of attempting an unnecessary delay. It was absurd and ridiculous to pretend that too early a day was proposed for the going into a committee. The noble lord had, indeed, asserted it, but had given no good reason for postponing the business, and he called upon the noble lord to lay his hand upon his heart, and say, if he was not ready to go into a committee, as far as a knowledge on his part of the Bill was necessary. It was not supposed that the whole of the Bill was to be immediately considered, but a part only; and what was that part? Whether the third secretary of state, namely the secretary of state for the American colonies, was not an office altogether useless, and as such to be abolished? This was the first part of the Bill to be investigated, and it was so simple a question, that there required no more preparation than had been taken to decide upon it. The other noble lord (Nugent) had argued in a very curious When opposition complained against government for an undue use of power, the noble lord was ready to exclaim, what would you have! we have lost thirteen colonies, and surely we have reduced the influence of the crown as much as you ought in reason to require! He denied in the most express terms, that it was true, that the influence of the crown had not been extended, and adverted in the most happy vein of satire to the argument used by lord Nugent in contradiction to that fact. The noble lord also said, that all places, pensions, and sinecures are in the gift of the crown, and that the crown acts constitutionally in giving them away; so that the noble lord means, if he means any thing at all, that when a member solicits a place, a pension, or a sinecure, he is, in so doing, supporting the constitution. As to the fact, whether the crown had extended its power or not, he sincerely wished the question could be fairly put, and the sense of the House impartially taken upon it. The minister had often complained that opposition were actuated by interested views, and the calumny had been echoed through the ministerial circle into the world. If this was the case, how did the present conduct of the side of the

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next day and did not mean to let it go to a committee on Wednesday, which was not the case, for he did mean that it should then go to a committee, and begged leave to declare it to the House, but as the Bill consisted of a variety of allegations, and was a farrago of incidents, he did not suppose it would be thought unreasonable, if he should then call for evidence in support of those facts, on which the propositions of the Bill were founded.

Mr. Burke treated the expectation of the noble lord as to having proof of the allegation in his Bill with the most superlative contempt, because the thing was impossible. He asserted, that the third secretary of state was useless, and how was he to prove it, but by the notoriety of the fact? Neither the deputy, the clerks, nor even the fire-lighter, would come to vouch it. If he understood the noble lord, he was to prove all those places to be useless he meant to abolish, and also to shew by evidence, that he could make the savings he proposed, and as neither of those things were to be proved by evidence, except collateral evidence, he considered them as bars to the success of his Bill. Indeed, he concluded the noble lord meant on Wednesday to throw it out, for though he would concur in its going to a committee, he would not say it should be debated in it.

House on which he ranked himself correspond with the charge? If they really wanted places, how was it that they had brought in a Bill for cutting off so many of them? If they wanted pensions and sinecures, how happened it, that they had proposed an abolition of them? Did they want money too? Then why were they struggling for œconomy in the expenditure of the public money? In fine, the hon. gentleman contended, that by the Bill in question, they removed every suspicion of selfishness, and he could not out call to mind the observation of an hon. gentleman, not a member of the House, who took the chair at the Wiltshire meeting, that the Bill went to make the opposition honest, as well as the ministry. He then took notice of some expressions that had fallen from the other side, respecting the liberty of the press having been carried to a great degree of licentiousness, and confessed he was apt to think our present situation in a great measure owing to the bad use that had been made of it by those hired by government, whose system it was to mix all ranks together, to bring them to a level with each other, and to impress the people with a notion that there were no virtuous men in the present age. This vile and damnable heresy, he exploded with great warmth of expression, and thought it done merely to set the public against the liberty of the press, and tra- The question being put, that the words, duce those very men who were proving" to-morrow morning," stand part of the their integrity by promoting the Bill under question; the House divided. discussion. He hoped, that as the thirteen colonies were now actually lost, for the noble lord (Nugent) had at length admitted it, the public was to have a great saving, and he hoped to hear that the pensions given to the American governors would be discontinued, and particularly that granted to governor Hutchinson, who had been the fore-runner and very firebrand of the rebellion on the other side of the Atlantic. He urged the going into a com-firmative. mittee on the Bill next day; and charged the minister with an intention of putting it totally aside, or rendering it nugatory, by dissolving the parliament after opening the budget.

Lord North disclaimed any intention of dissolving parliament before the usual time; said if he had been supported by the country gentlemen, it proved he had not been supported by an improper influence. As to the Bill, gentlemen had certainly a right to be angry with him, if he objected to its going to a committee

YEAS

NOES

Tellers.

Mr. Thomas Townshend
Mr. Fox

Mr. Robinson
SLord Beauchamp

}

195

230

So it passed in the negative. And the question being put, that the words " upon Wednesday morning next," be inserted instead thereof; it was resolved in the af

Debate on the Budget.] March 6. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,

Lord North began with lamenting, that he should have a task so disagreeable to perform, as that he was about to execute. A noble lord (George Gordon) had called it a very serious business; another hon. gentleman had called it a devouring business; it certainly was far from an agreeable thing to him to come to that House to ask a large loan, which must necessa

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rily add greatly to the burthens already felt by the people; as little pleasant could it be for parliament, however pressing the necessity of the state, to add to those burthens. But when gentlemen bestowed harsh epithets on the business of the day, it would be but fair in them to remember that it was the war and the national demands that caused the Budget and swelled it to an enormous size, and not the Budget that caused the war or increased the national demands. At this moment it must be obvious to every gentleman, that the expences of the last year had been unavoidable; our enemies had fitted out so formidable a fleet and sent it to sea against us, that the boasted Armada, and all the fleets that we read of in history, that had ever been sent to sea against Great Britain at former times, were in the comparison, but mere trifles, when weighed against the naval preparations of France and Spain last year; a large fleet was therefore necessary to be fitted out on our part, and a finer, either in point of number, or in point of strength, had never sailed out of our ports; but every effect was traceable to its cause, the navy of England therefore it was, that had devoured the resources of the country, and to that principally was to be attributed the enormity of the last year's expences.

His lordship then went into a recital of the supplies already voted, and those that remained to be voted for the service of the current year, stating them article by article, and at length casting up the several gross amounts, he made the total nearly 21 million. After naming the army, the army extraordinaries, the ordinary and extraordinary of the navy, the ordnance and the various other usual services, he said that what served to swell the supply to nearly 21 millions, was the inheritance of the deficiencies of the last year's ways and means, and particularly the failure of the taxes. He stated what the land tax had fallen short, and said that he had come down to confess, that the tax on houses had, as gentlemen might see from papers on the table, failed for the two years very considerably. In the first year it had been given for 260,000l. and the produce of it had not amounted to quite 100,000l. The last year it had also fallen short, but not exactly in the same proportion. Gentlemen had at different times been extremely severe on that tax, and termed it unproductive, partial, and unjust. He was free to own, that though neither of

those epithets was due to the tax itself, yet it had certainly failed in its operation, and therefore it in some degree merited what had been said of it. The fault, as far as he had been able to trace it, was ascribeable solely to an improper collection of it. The tax itself he still approved, and was sure it might be rendered both productive and efficient. The collectors and assessors down in the country had not done their duty, and thence it had failed. They had taken the rents of houses by an improper estimate, and in consequence the produce had fallen short, and the payments had been partially made, but he begged leave to say, that although it had, from the mode of its being collected, proved favourable to the rich, it was not to be complained of as having oppressed the poor. He said further, that he had been induced to adopt the mode of collection by parochial assessors and collectors, as an experiment how far the most lenient way of receiving it from the subject would answer the desired end; nor was he at all sorry that he had tried the experiment, although the event had proved, that had it not been governed by the rents of houses, but taken by the more certain, though less agreeable rule of the window tax, it would have exceeded in the produce by a considerable sum, the sum for which it was given. The wine tax his lordship declared, had also fallen short, in appearance, but he would not say in reality, because the deficiency might be owing solely to the quantity of wine designed to be imported, not having been imported by the time which the account was made up to. What therefore the produce fell short last year might be made up this. The deficiencies of the taxes upon the whole for the year before the last, his lordship stated at about 300,000%. The deficiencies of the taxes last year, at near 200,000/.

He said that the heavy expence of the navy, having necessarily increased the debt of the navy, it had as usual had its effect upon navy bills, which were for that reason at a large discount; he proposed, therefore, to pay off a million and a half of the navy debt, by exchequer bills. He mentioned 13,000l. paid the African Company last year, as a sum to be deducted from the amount of the parts of the supply not already voted, because that having been moved last session after the budget, was voted upon address, and therefore stood charged in the present account,

under the head of monies paid upon address to his Majesty, and not with the rest of the resolutions of the committee of supply.

After detailing every part of the supply, his lordship came to the ways and means by which he proposed to provide for the amount of the supplies, and first he mentioned the same number of exchequer bills as he had made a part of last year's ways and means; next the land and malt tax, and then the disposable monies arising out of the sinking fund; stating them thus: Exchequer bills, 3,400,000l., land and malt tax 2,750,000l., from the sinking fund 2,500,000l.; making 8,650,000l. Which, with the intended loan of 12 million, would amount to 20,650,000l.

His lordship descanted on each of the above heads as he mentioned them, giving his reasons for making the same use of exchequer bills as he had made the last year; and declaring that the sinking fund afforded a most comfortable prospect. He then went into a discussion of the loan itself, accounting for its being so large, and informing the committee that he had entertained hopes of not having occasion to borrow so much this year, from an expectation of being able to draw a very considerable resource from the East India Company; he said that the propositions which had been submitted to him, and which doubtless had been seen by every gentleman present, appeared to be a proper ground for a treaty which might have been brought to a point upon due conference and consideration, so as to have enabled him to have come to parliament for a ratification of them that year, but that a difference of opinion had arisen among the proprietors, and that the matter was at an end for the present. It might, however, soon be thought right by parliament to give the company the three years notice, as the charter would expire in three years from the 5th of April next; for certainly the public had a right to look for very considerable resources from the territorial revenues in India, all of which were, in his opinion, the property of the public; but he believed it was the universal opinion that the public had at least a right to a participation of e profits. The treaty, however, being broken off for the present, he had made the bargain for a loan of twelve millions, and he the rather did it, because he had offers made him for the loan of twenty millions; he thought it better, therefore, to take it at a large sum

this year and leave it to the loan of the next year to be proposed, he hoped not by him, but by his successor in office, to be more easy, which it undoubtedly from many causes would be. It might possibly be said, that it was easy to talk of twenty millions, but were those who had offered it men capable of making good the conditions? He did assure the House upon his honour, that among all the names entered in his books, there were not names for more than one million of the whole twenty, which were not the names of men whom he knew to be substantial and respectable characters; men capable of giving security for complying with the conditions of the loan. Nineteen millions he consequently could have answered for, and gentlemen thence would see that his great difficulty had been, not to raise the money, but how to strike off from the sum offered, and from the numbers that offered to be subscribers, so as to divide it satisfactorily. The terms of the loan which he proposed to the committee were these: Annuity irredeemable for seven years, at 4. per cent. taken at 747.; long annuity for 80 years, at 17. 16s. 3d. taken at 16 years 297.; four lottery tickets (of a lottery consisting of 48,000 tickets) for every 1,000l. subscribed, equal to a profit of 17. making 1041. The 4 per cents. to be payable from the 5th of January last.

After stating this collectively, his lordship spoke particularly to each of its three distinct parts. With regard to the first, the 4 per cent. annuity, he said, it had been his wish to have raised the loan at 5 per cent. but that the monied men in the city objected to it, and gave their reasons; among others, they had stated, that it would not be a very pleasant thing to have a 5 per cent. annuity done under par, and different supposed valuations were put upon it. He would then have taken it at the next gradation 4, but the same objections laid against that. In fact, the sum to be borrowed was a large one, he was the borrower and the monied men the lenders, the result therefore was, that the latter prevailed, and, though he had not at all changed his sentiments, and would recommend it to his successors to try again to borrow at 5 per cent. because it did not follow that what could not be procured then, might not be procured at another time, le was now under the necessity of taking it at the highest he could get it, which was 4 per cent. He stated, why he took their price at 74, and then

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