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very laudable one, and excepting in the particular which he had adverted to, it met with his hearty and full concurrence. Mr. Dunning declared, that the great view with which he had proposed the resolution, was to preserve the independence of parliament, and that end he flattered himself it would fully answer. If it also answered the other more important end alluded to by the learned gentleman opposite to him, namely, that of disabusing the public, and convincing them that their prejudices respecting the supposed corruption of parliament, were altogether illfounded; that surely would render it a most desirable motion.

The question was put and carried without a division.

Mr. Dunning rose again, and explained on what grounds he meant to proceed next, still urging the committee ever to hold in their minds the consideration that the corrupt pecuniary influence supposed to 'exist within those walls, was the grand basis of all the petitions, the first object of the jealousy of the people, and therefore ought to be a point at which it behoved them to direct their efforts, either to root it out, if it existed as was supposed, or to check its influence, and by endeavouring to prevent it as much as possible, to convince the people of England, that they were serious in their determination to comply with their petitions, zealous effectually to satisfy them, and anxious to clear themselves from all suspicion of being willing to be corrupted. The resolution he then designed to propose would be aimed at the incompatibility of certain placemen holding seats in that House, and would tend to remove thirteen instances of influence, by rendering it in future impossible for thirteen persons, holding such places as he should describe, to sit in parliament. He then read the Resolution he had to offer, which was as follows: "That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is incompatible with the independence of parliament, that persons holding the offices of treasurer of the chamber, treasurer of the houshold, cofferer of the houshold and his clerk, comptroller of the houshold and his clerk, master of the houshold, and the clerks of the green cloth, be entitled to hold seats in this House, if such places shall be permitted to exist." This resolution he did not expect would be as cheerfully accepted as his preceding one; he trusted, however, that should the question be pushed to a division, he and his friends

would not, as they had been wantonly told they would, in the debate of Thursday last, turn out to be a rope of sand, but would still carry it by a majority: indeed it was impossible to do otherwise when it was considered how much his first resolution had on Thursday last been strengthened by the friendly assistance of a learned gentleman in his eye, who was not content with suffering his motion to stand as it did upon the simple grounds of declaring that the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished, but had thought proper to enforce the whole of the proposition, by adding to it, that it was necessary for the committee then to declare as much.

Mr. Dundas said he had no intention in the course of what he should say that evening to advert to what had passed in a former debate, though he was fair to own, that in moving the amendment adverted to by the learned gentleman, he had considerably strengthened a proposition which he certainly did not mean to have strengthened, but which he had moved the amendment to, in the hope that it would more forcibly impress the minds of the committee with the propriety of negativing that proposition. All this he was free to confess, and at the same time he was free to declare, that it had been in compliance with the sentiments of others that he had then moved the previous question; a matter he was by no means fond of proposing, because it was much more consonant with his temper and frame of mind, when any proposition came under his consideration, to give it either a direct nega tive or a direct affirmative, whichever it appeared to him to merit. Having in the instance alluded to, shewn his awkwardness and his ill-success in proposing a previous question, he would now avoid falling into a similar error, and for that reason, as he approved of the present proposition as little as he had approved of the former, he would give it a direct negative, and although, as the learned gentleman had boasted, it had not yet appeared that those with whom that learned gentleman had acted, were a rope of sand, he would excuse him, if upon the present question he fondly indulged himself in the expectation of finding, that they were but a rope of sand, and that it would be on this occasion that they would begin to crumble away. He would not then, however take up the time of the committee in any explanation of his own ideas, conveyed

in his own insignificant expressions, be- | sional, a great military and naval interest, cause he could more fully convey his all necessarily comprehending many peomeaning in the elegant and forcible lan-ple of the first weight, ability, wealth, and guage of another person (Mr. Burke), who had ten years ago treated on the topics then under discussion with such a depth of philosophical reasoning, with so much true political knowledge, and so large a share of solid and convincing argument, that the committee, he was certain, would thank him, for substituting that author's opinion, in the room of his own crude and undigested thoughts. The author he alluded to, was the author of a book published precisely 10 years since, under the title of " Thoughts on the Cause of the present Discontents;" a book which when he first read it, made a deep impression on his mind, and which from a recollection, that it turned immediately upon subjects now the principal topics of political discussion, he had lately referred to, and as it was not the fashion to quote from recollection, had copied upon paper a large extract from, which extract he would read to the House as a part of his speech.

He then produced several folio manuscript pages; the beginning of them he stated to be an answer to the argument in favour of triennial parliaments, which, as it was not the topic then under discussion, he would not trouble the committee with hearing. He then proceeded to read the remainder of the extract, as follows:

"The next favourite remedy is a placebill. The same principle guides in both; I mean the opinion which is entertained by many, of the infallibility of laws and regulations, in the cure of public distempers. Without being as unreasonably doubtful as many are unwisely confident, I will only say, that this is also a matter very well worthy of serious and mature reflection. It is not easy to foresee what the effect would be, of disconnecting with parliament, the greatest part of those who hold civil employments, and of such mighty and important bodies as the military and naval establishment. It were better, perhaps, that they should have a corrupt interest in the forms of the constitution, than that they should have none at all. This is a question altogether different from the disqualification of a particular description of revenue officers from seats in parliament; or, because they are not, of all the lower sorts of them from their votes in elections. In the former case only, the few are affected; in the latter, only the inconsiderable. But a great official, a great profes

spirit, have been gradually formed in the kingdom. These new interests must be let into a share of representation, else possibly they may be inclined to destroy those institutions of which they are not permitted to partake. This is not a thing to be trifled with; nor is it every wellmeaning man, that is fit to put his hands to it. Many other great and serious considerations occur. I do not open them here, because they are not directly to my purpose; proposing only to give the reader some taste of the difficulties that attend all capital changes in the constitution; the great uncertainty, to say no worse, of preventing the court, as long as it has the means of corruption abundantly in its power, of applying them to parlia ment, and, perhaps, if the public method were precluded, of doing it in some worse and more dangerous method. Underhand and oblique ways would be studied. The science of evasion, already tolerably understood, would then be brought to the greatest perfection. It is no inconsiderable part of wisdom, to know how much of an evil ought to be tolerated; lest, by attempting a degree of purity impracticable in degenerate times and manners, instead of cutting off the subsisting ill practices, new corruptions might be produced for the concealment and security of the old. It were better, undoubtedly, that no influence at all could affect the mind of a member of parliament. But of all modes of influence, in my opinion, a place under government is the least disgraceful to the man who holds it, and by far the most safe to the country. I would not shut out that sort of influence which is open and visible, which is connected with the dignity and service of the state, when it is not in my power to prevent the influence of contracts, of subscriptions, of direct bribery, and those innumerable methods of clandestine corruption, which are abundantly in the hands of the court, and which will be applied as long as these means of corruption, and the disposition to be corrupted, have existence amongst us. These are my sentiments, honest and unbiassed, to the best of my judgment; submitted, however, to the opinion of grave men, well affected to the constitution of their country, and of experience in what may best promote or hurt it."

Having finished, the learned gentleman

concluded with giving his negative to the resolution.

paid many ironical compliments to Mr. Burke, upon the extract he had just read, and declared it so perfectly coincided with his sentiments, that he had scrupled not to become an acknowledged plagiarist sooner than suffer such excellent arguguments to escape the notice of the committee. After pushing this idea pretty far, the Lord Advocate recurred to the motion, which he objected to on the double ground of tending, of a sudden, materially to alter the constitution, and being calculated to enforce a measure highly inexpedient. He said it might do honest men a serious injury, but would not prevent rogues from remaining dishonest. Those who were wicked enough to be willing to receive the wages of corruption, would receive them, for various secret means of corruption were within the scope of hu-kind! He had robbed the poor, and taken man ingenuity.

Mr. Burke began with saying, that the learned gentleman's feelings of surprize were of the most extraordinary kind. Surprize to the learned gentleman was preparation. The learned gentleman's speech was the plainest and most direct answer to his argument against being taken by surprize, for though he had known nothing of the motion then under consideration, an invisible agent had conveyed into his pocket a long written extract, which the learned gentleman had thought convenient and applicable. The learned gentleman had descended to steal that from another which was of little worth. He had confessed himself a plagiarist, a plagiarist of the most pitiful

what could avail him nothing. With reHe justified, by past example, the pro- gard to the author quoted by the learned priety of having the great officers of state, gentleman, would any man say that a and those who served near the person of writer was bound to follow in all cases, the King, in parliament; declared he and under all circumstances, those arguwished the constitution to remain as it was, ments which he had thought wise and and was not at any rate for coming so proper ten years ago, when times and decisively to a resolution, which, if car- circumstances were excessively different? ried, would make a violent alteration in it. At that time influence was not carried to If the idea had been suggested to the the extent to which it had been carried House by a Bill, it would have appeared since. The American war had not been to him a much fairer way of proceeding, commenced. America was not lost to because at the bringing in of such a Bill, this country by influence. As far, howat its first or second reading, on its com- ever, as he was acquainted with that aumittment, or in any of its subsequent thor, he would take upon him to assert, stages, it might be coolly discussed, but that what were his opinions, when he in the present instance, gentlemen were wrote the passages the learned gentleman called on instantly to decide upon an ex- had cited, were his opinions now, exactly tensive and important proposition, popped and entirely. The extract had no refeout of a member's pocket and wholly rence whatever to the point then under new to those whom it most immediately discussion; but he would appeal to the concerned. This mode of taking the committee if his conduct had differed from House by surprize was of itself sufficient the doctrines contained in that extract. to excite his objection to the motion, and What was the principal argument of them the rather because the learned gentleman but this? That a general place bill, tendwho made it, should he carry it, would ing to disjoint the military and great pronot be content with that, but contrary to fessional departments from the legislature, all parliamentary rule, would proceed a and give them separate feelings and sepastep further, and report it instantly. Thus rate interests, would not only be a vionot giving gentlemen time to sleep upon lent, but a dangerous innovation on the their opinions, not affording them an op- constitution. Who would now say otherportunity to recal a rash vote, should it wise? The place bill at present proposed, upon consideration appear to be so, they was not the sort of measure the extract alwere hurried from one measure to ano-luded to. After arguing this for some ther, and might do infinite mischief. Not that he meant to blame the gentlemen of the other side for this conduct, they certainly were wise in pursuing, it was right for them to adopt it, nor could they effect their purpose in any other manner. He

time, he went into a defence of the motion as perfectly consonant to his own bill, though it fell somewhat short of it. The clause, however, having been lost, was it to be then wondered at, or charged against him as an inconsistency, that he should

that even if the learned gentleman who spoke last, had been right in his argument, that it would only change the influence from one House of Parliament to the other, it would do material service, because so long as the House of Commons was incorrupt and pure, the constitution was safe, for danger was not to be dreaded from the other House.

Mr. Dunning replied, by a recapitulation of the arguments which he had used before, and reminded the gentlemen who had made their objections, without attending to those arguments, they might have prevented him from obtruding himself upon the House.

take up his friend's proposition which came so near to his own meaning? This led him into a defence of his own clause, which the committee, who sat upon it before the holidays, had rejected. He declared it appeared to him that the offices aimed at in his plan of reform, such as the King's cooks, the King's dogkeepers, &c. were, in his opinion, much too menial to be held by members of parliament, and therefore he had wished to abolish them. To do those members who held these sort of places justice, it was but fair to say, they had a most gentleman-like ignorance of the duties of the respective offices they filled. From this he returned to a defence of the present motion, and trusted that he and his friends should prove to be linked by a more tough and durable chain, than a rope of sand, by the decision of the question, which he justified from the Lord Advocate's attack on the ground," that it would, if carried, do an injury to many an honest man, but not prevent men willing to be corrupted, from being corrupted," by desiring the committee to remember that part of the Lord's Prayer, which says, "lead us not into temptation," and telling them it was their duty to lessen the inducements to members to be corrupted by taking away the means of corruption.

The Attorney General argued against the motion, deeming it a proposition unjust in itself, and unwise, tending to deceive the people, and to produce an effect directly opposite to that, which it had been stated as likely to produce. Were it carried, it would dishonour those offices it was levelled at, by holding them out as not fit to be trusted with members of parliament, and, in fact, would only remove the influence, if any these offices carried in them, from that House to the other, for if they were taken from the members of that House, they would certainly be given to the members of the House of Lords. He defended placemen in general, and said that to remove them would give room for secret and the worst kind of influence to be exerted. While men of honour held places, the degree of influence they were under, was known, and their conduct obvious to comment: the offices in question might be held by less honourable persons, and a greater mischief be done to the state and to the constitution.

Mr. T. Pitt called back the attention of the House to the motion. He said [VOL. XXI.]

The Committee divided: Yeas 215; Noes 213.

Petition from Rochester against Popery.] April 11. Mr. Gregory presented a petition from 1,962 persons, inhabitants of Rochester, praying that leave might be given to bring in a Bill for the repeal of the act lately passed in favour of the Roman Catholics.

Lord George Gordon expressed his satisfaction at seeing the petition brought in. His lordship expatiated on the necessity of that House taking as active a part relative to the religious establishment, as they were taking from day to day in political affairs. He lamented, that although there were two churches and one cathedral at Rochester, there were few of the clergy who had signed the petition; it was their peculiar province, he said, to guard against the inroads of Popery, which was making hasty strides to re-establish itself throughout the kingdom, and threatened extirpation to Protestantism. He begged leave to read a memorial or resolution, descrip tive of Popery, and all its horrid consequences, which was drawn up in Ireland in 1626, and signed by the archbishop of Armagh, and the other prelates of the Protestant church in that kingdom. Having finished reading, he said, our bishops ought to come to a similar resolution, but the time-serving priests, the Popish episcopalians of the other House, were more intent on other objects, and objects less worthy the attention of Christian prelates. He ran into a strain of vehement attack on those in power, for not doing their duty in religious matters.

Mr. Turner said, he could not sit still and hear the noble lord run on at that rate. The noble lord was perpetually interupting business, and introducing matters directly [2 C]

jects, and so high was their love and zeal for their prince, that there was not one of them who would not willingly lay down his life and fortune in his service.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table.

personal. The noble lord had got a twist in his head, a certain whirligig which ran away with him, if any thing relative to religion was mentioned, and made him expose himself perpetually. He said this out of friendship to the noble lord. He wished the noble lord well; the noble lord was a staunch Whig, an enemy to the Mr. Burke's Speech on the Punishment American war, and a friend to the liber- of the Pillory.] Mr. Burke called the ties of the people; he could not bear, there- attention of the House to a very particular fore, to see the noble lord render himself matter. He said, they sat there to make a laughing stock, and become the make- laws for the subject; that the laws which game of the whole House. He respected chiefly came under their consideration the noble lord, and the House ought to were laws of civil polity, but those which respect him on account of his noble fami- most claimed their attention and care were ly. Mr. Turner having said this, went the criminal laws. The first only regardinto an argument, to prove that religious ed men's property, criminal laws affected jealousies were equally illiberal and unjust. men's lives, a consideration infinitely suThat a Protestant would not plough the perior to the former. In making criminal ground better than a Papist, nor a Papist laws, it behoved them materially to conbetter than a Protestant, and as long as sider how they proceeded, to take care the Roman Catholics demeaned themselves wisely and nicely to proportion the punishdecently, and conformed to the laws of ment so that it should not exceed the exthe country, they had a right to expect tent of the crime, and to provide that it and to receive every possible indulgence. should be of that kind, which was more Lord George Gordon rose again, and in calculated to operate as an example and order to elucidate his former argument, prevent crimes, than to oppress and torpulled out an Irish newspaper, and read ment the convicted criminal. If this was two extracts from father O'Leary's letter not properly attended to in the criminal against the principles of Wesley; he after-laws which passed that House, they forced wards read some passages from Wesley's his Majesty to violate his coronation oath reply, and contended that another mas- and commit perjury, because his Majesty, sacre of the Protestants, like to that in when he was crowned, and invested with Ireland, was to be dreaded, if something the executive government, had solemnly was not done conformably to the wishes sworn to temper justice with mercy, which of those of the Established Church. He it was almost impossible for him to do if said such as came up to him as a member that House suffered any penal laws to pass of parliament, had told him, that they al- on principles repugnant to this idea, and ready considered themselves absolved from in which justice, rigid justice, was solely their allegiance to his Majesty. They attended to, and all sight of mercy lost, had not yet determined to murder the and foregone. He said, the matter which King and put him to death; they only had induced him to make these reflections, considered that they were absolved from was the perusal of a melancholy circum their allegiance. He declared the Lord stance stated in the newspapers of that Advocate knew very well what was the morning. He hoped to God the fact was opinion of the people in Scotland respect- mis-stated, and that the whole relation had ing Popery, and that what he had now no foundation in truth. It had, however, said, he had not thrown out as any idle made a very strong impression on his mind, threat; he meant to put ministers on their and he conceived it of a nature sufficientguard, to warn them to do what was rightly interesting to merit the attention of that in time. For this purpose he had been twice to court to tell his Majesty what he knew upon the subject, and now rose to tell it ministers.

Mr. Gregory declared, that to his knowledge those who had subscribed the petition were not of such sentiments as the noble lord had described. They were firm in their loyalty, as good and as peaceably inclined as any of his Majesty's sub

House, because if it should turn out to be true, he thought it would be incumbent on that House to take some measure in consequence of it. The relation he alluded to, was that of the unhappy and horrid murder of a poor wretch, condemned to stand in the pillory the preceding day. The account stated that two men (Reed and Smith) had been doomed to this punishment; that one of them being

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