why did the protestors libel and traduce the petitioners? If they had any dislike to the matter set forth in the petitions, they might have done it; but after giving the petition a tacit approbation, was it right, was it decent in the noble lord to protest against it? The hon. gentleman would not say in what manner the protests ought to be treated. He wished from his soul that the protest could be brought before the House; nay, he wished that every county would protest to its utmost, that numbers might be fairly counted. As to the protests already made, there was one way, indeed, and but one, to bring them before the House, and that was by ordering those instruments to be laid before them, as false and infamous libels against the people of England, for using the right the constitution gave them of petitioning parliament. There was a time, he was very sure, when the representatives of the people would have done this. He spoke now as a member of the House, and not a petitioner; and he thought he stood in a situation to complain of those protests, as an attack on his legislative character, as denying his Majesty's subjects a privilege of complaining to him, of any injuries they might suppose they were labouring under. The hon. gentleman took notice of the assertions made in another House, by a noble lord (Hillsborough) reflecting on the county meetings, and the petitions they had sent to parliament, and said he was very glad the noble lord in the blue ribbon had no such opinion of them, but had abandoned the protestors. The hon. gentleman finally declared, that it was necessary that the influence of the crown should be checked for the safety of the constitution. Lord North said, the hon. gentleman was a powerful advocate in any cause, however arduous and difficult. His rapidity of speech, his severity of censure, and choice of words, made him an enemy to be dreaded; for his part, he feared him as an antagonist-yet notwithstanding this, he would rather have the hon. member for an opponent than a commentator, for nothing but such extensive talents for commentating, could possibly have induced the hon. gentleman to state, that he had ever said any thing that was to be construed into an abandoning, or any intention to abandon the protestors. Good God, was it possible for him to use any such expression? The petitions presented, were not the petitions of the county of Hampshire, nor of the county of York. They were not the petitions of this county, nor of that county, but only of such a number and description of persons residing in the county, and for him to think of abandoning those who thought it their duty to protest against them, would be monstrous. With respect to the influence of the crown, the noble lord declared it had not increased of late years, and that any attempt at a diminution of it ought to be resisted. Mr. Dunning ably defended the right of petitioning, and said the persons who signed a petition by no means meant to convey what it contained as the sense of the county at large, but of the meeting held at that county, to which the freeholders had access. Lord Mulgrave adverted to the late meeting held at York, and said it was true, that there was a property in the room of more value than within the walls of parliament, as had been asserted by an hon. baronet (sir G. Savile): it was a still greater compliment to the county, that great as the property was at that meeting, it was not half of what the county possessed. His lordship also denied that the petition was signed by a majority of the freeholders and landholders, for he understood the county contained very near 30,000 persons under those descriptions, and not 1,500 names appeared to the petition. But the noble lord did not think that either the rank or number of the persons signified; the right of petitioning was universal and free as air. It mattered not who petitioned, it was the subject of the petition that was to be attended to, and a single person, a beggar, nay a foreigner, petitioning alone, had a right to be heard. But the noble lord reprobated the present mode of petitioning: it was dangerous and unconstitutional; for the associations had as much as declared, that if parliament did not grant the prayer of the petitions, other means would be taken than those the petitioners had used. But the noble lord begged leave to warn men against stepping out of the proper path; for the constitution had drawn a line for the people to go by, and if they transgressed they might expect to be punished with justice but without pity. For his part, he loved the constitution; he did not wish a better; and as there was still energy enough in government, he trusted it would be properly put forth to curb the disaffected, and support itself with the dignity it was bound to preserve. duced. A proud secretary of state had, in the upper House, declared the petitioners factious, and the petitions libellous. This was, of all other men, the very last who should have uttered such words. The first he ever heard of the noble lord, was his turning out general Amherst from his government, next his conduct at St. Vincent's when the wretched Caribs were treated with every species of brutality, and soon after he found the noble lord writing letters to America, and piddling in the rebellion that afterwards raged through the whole continent. The hon. gentleman attacked the noble lord in the blue ribbon, for his assertion, that the influence of the crown had not of late years increased, and asked, what all the increase of our military had tended to but an extension of the influence of the crown. Lord John Cavendish spoke of the legality of the meeting at York, and the respectability of the persons who had signed the petition. He said he had seen near 50,000 of his fellow-creatures wantonly butchered in an unnatural war, and could not but set his face against the ministers that had prosecuted it. He did not entirely agree with the noble lord, that as much attention ought to be paid to a petition signed by an individual, as by a body of people; because it was more likely that a body of people should have more to complain of, and that of a nature more important, than an individual. As to the meeting at York, for instance, the property of the persons petitioning was supposed to be not less than 800,000l. a year; and as rents had fallen one-third in value, they certainly had more right to petition than any one person could possibly have. The Lord North entered very fully into a noble lord did not agree that it was the defence of the earl of Hillsborough, and matter of the petition alone that was to be urged the impropriety of taking notice of considered; because if a majority of the words spoken in another House. As to people of England were to desire even a the influence of the crown, he again deworse government than we have at pre-clared, that there were many gentlemen sent, they would have a right to have their who did not think it too great. wishes gratified. He esteemed himself much obliged to the noble lord, for the very kind caution he had given him, in common with other petitioners, to take care, and not step aside from the constitution. He had taken care, and should continue to do so. Every one knew, that he had connections too dear and valuable to him, to wish for anarchy and confusion, bat no consideration should warp him from exerting himself to the very utmost, in enforcing a compliance with the prayer of the petitions. Mr. T. Townshend thanked lord Mulgrave for the very friendly hint he had thrown out, not to step aside from the line the constitution had marked out, for that if he did, he would be punished with justice, but without pity. He did not want to be informed of this; he knew well enough that punishment, without pity, would follow the friends of the people, if they should happen to step a little out of the path, and he believed ministry would do it now, if they dared. He adverted to the associations of Ireland, and reminded the House of the different treatment they had received from what the petitioners of England had experienced. He wanted to have a reason given him, why the people of England could not arm themselves, as well as the people of Ireland. There they had been complimented, here tra[VOL. XXI.] Colonel Barré, as he had started the business, would take the liberty of detaining the House upon it, until they came to a right understanding. The noble lord, and he thanked him for it, had frankly told the House that any attempt at a diminution of the influence of the crown was to be resisted; he should therefore be glad to know of the noble lord, if when a commission of accounts should be chosen, it was to be an instruction to them, to avoid touching upon any thing that might tend to lessening the influence of the crown? This he particularly desired to be informed of, as it would be better to die in the cause at once, if no real and substantial service was meant the people of England. Lord North declared his readiness to coincide and co-operate with a commission of account, but did not give an answer to the right hon. gentleman. Mr. Onslow exclaimed in the most bitter terms against the petitions and petitioners; he did not like them, they were factious, and might do a great deal of mischief. It had been his fortune to have been educated in constitutional principles, and he could not bear to see such things. They made his heart ache; he vowed to God they did. He was down in Sussex a little while ago, and on a rainy day, taking a walk out, what should he see, but two men taking the heights of a hill, and when [G] he asked them what they were doing it for, they told him it was for the duke of Richmond. This alarmed him exceedingly. But when he heard of the Sussex meeting, and their petition, he could not help feel ing for the constitution, for he loved the constitution, by his soul he did. But this was not all he knew of the duke of Richmond. His grace was at the table of the duke d'Aiguillon in France, and the duke said, I wish, indeed, to see English pride humbled, but I wonder that an English duke should wish it. The hon. gentleman was here called to order by col. Barré, who thought it incumbent on him to explain himself as to the duke of Richmond, but the hon. gentleman denied he had traduced him, and defied the most captious imp of the law to hurt a hair of his head. After this, he went on a considerable time abusing the petitioners and their conduct, and appealed to every one that heard him, and to God Almighty, that what he said, was spoken from the feelings of his heart. In the course of his speech, he was called to order seven or eight times. The character of the duke of Richmond was warmly defended by general Conway, col. Barré, Mr. Townshend, and Mr. Fox, the latter of whom was surprised the hon. gentleman should be alarmed because one of his Majesty's generals had sent two persons to take the height of a hill on the coast of Sussex, the better to enable him to put it in a state of defence. But it was so rare for any one to do any thing for government for nothing, that the gentleman was quite alarmed, especially when he heard of the petition. If any foreigner were to hear the language used by ministers, he would conclude that the petitions militated against the constitution, tending to overturn the constitution, and raise rebellion; and yet, were he to read them, he would find them to pray for nothing more than economy in the public expenditure. Formerly, the ministry accused opposition, every day, of wanting places, pensions, and sinecures; but, now that they prayed for an abolition of those things, they were charged with endeavouring to overthrow the consti tution. Debate on Sir George Savile's Motion for an Account of Pensions granted during pleasure or otherwise.] Feb. 15. Sir George Savile moved for "an account of all places for life or lives, whether held by patent or otherwise, specifying the dates of such patents, or other instruments by which such places are held, the names of the persons who hold the same, and the salaries and fees belonging thereto." By this account, he said, the House, and of course his constituents, would be able to judge of the services done to the state in return for the salaries paid by it. The motion was agreed to without any opposition. Sir George next moved, as part of his plan, and a prime object of the county meetings, for " an account of all subsisting pensions granted by the crown, during pleasure, or otherwise; specifying the amount of such pensions respectively, and the times when, and the persons to whom, such pensions were granted." Lord Nugent opposed this motion. He said that many deserving persons enjoyed his Majesty's private bounty, who would not wish their names made public; some reduced gentry stood in the same predicament, and there were many lady Bridgets, lady Marys and Jennys, who would be much hurt at having their names entered in the proceedings of that House as pensioners of the state. Pride, in general, was apt to extend its influence more or less every where, but female pride was sanctioned, and partly approved of by custom; but if lady Jenny and lady Mary, who passed as persons of consequence in their respective neighbourhoods, were discovered to be mere pensioners and dependants on a court, they would soon lose the respect which their rank entitled them to. He knew there were several of those lady Marys and lady Jennys from North Britain; surely it would be cruel to rob them of their rights. There were some of those ladies in Ireland, at least some who had pensions on the Irish establishment. At all events, as their appointments were but small, and the object all taken together but trifling, he would be much better pleased that the hon. baronet would give up his motion. Sir George Savile acknowledged, that so far as the lady Marys and lady Jennys and Bridgets came within the views of his motion, he felt equally for the inconveniences and disagreeable consequences arising from the circumstances of declaring the means which persons of rank, but small fortune, had to suppert themselves. To this very painful necessity he had nothing to oppose, but the important advantages which his constituents expected to reap from such a general disclosure. No man felt more for the delicacy and nice feeling of lady Betty or lady Mary, but | his plan for public economy, had thought yet no man, considering the great object in view, could sacrifice those inferior feelings with more perfect resignation. Mr. Cornwall said, the pension list consisted of two kinds; that paid out of the privy purse, and that paid at the exchequer, of which lord Gage was the paymaster. Those paid out of his Majesty's bounty, the noble lord who spoke lately had assigned a very sufficient reason for not publishing; and as for that paid at the exchequer, it was generally understood that no part of it was given to members of parliament, consequently it could not be supposed to increase the influence of the crown. Mr. T. Townshend observed, that the very reason assigned by the hon. gentleman was the strongest that could be urged in behalf of the motion; that was, that the pensions paid at the Exchequer were supposed never to be paid to members of parliament: if so, then no inconvenience could possibly ensue, but the ludicrous one so often alluded to, which he presumed would not be seriously urged against so great and so constitutional a motion as that now in the hands of the chair. Lord North said a few words against the propriety of the motion, though not against the motion itself. Lord George Gordon rose to speak, but while he was on his legs the Speaker seemed to be suddenly taken ill. Colonel Barré then moved that the debate should be adjourned. A great confusion now arose, and after a few minutes the House adjourned. Feb. 21. The House resumed the adjourned debate on sir George Savile's motion. Lord North moved an amendment, to add after the word, "otherwise," the words," and payable at the Exchequer." His lordship said, that he believed the true state of pensions were but very imperfectly known. All was not properly speaking pension, that appeared on the pension list. He enumerated a great number of salaries that were paid under the denomination of pensions: 35,000l. of hat passed for pension list, was not really so. And after deducting this sum and the 4s. in the pound of tax on places and pensions, the sum remaining under the denomination of pension, was about 50,000l., a sum less by 10,000l., than that which an hon. gentleman (Mr. Burke) in proper to be trusted to the management of the crown, under the name of secret service money. He thought that the county meetings were very ill informed with regard to many important particulars. He was persuaded, if the people of England knew, that all they could expect from exposing the names of pensioners, was only the savings of a severe ceconomy, applied to so small a subject as 50,000!. they would have greater liberality and delicacy than to insist upon the present motion. The hon. baronet had acknowledged that he called for the pension list with reluctance: that the motion which a regard to public welfare extorted from him, was grating to him; and so it must be to every humane and honourable man. To expose the necessities of ancient and noble families to the prying eye of malignant curiosity; to hold up the man who has a pension, to the detraction and envy of him who hates him, because he has none; to prepare a feast for party writers, and furnish materials for magazines and newspapers, which would magnify and misrepresent every circumstance in the whole detail of the account of the pensionsthese were the bad effects, but he knew of no good ones that could result from an indiscriminate exposure of all who received pensions from government. He remarked a difference between the money that was granted to government for the express purpose of payment of public services and civil list money, which was granted freely, and without restriction or controul to the person of the King. Having again read his amendment, he proposed, on account of the Speaker's ill health, to leave the motion, thus amended, on the table till next day, and to adjourn. The Speaker thanked the House for their kind attention; but found himself so much better as to hope, that the business of the House should suffer no farther interruption on his account. Mr. Dunning said, that he would willingly have heard the sentiments of other gentlemen on this great and important occasion, before he troubled the House with his own; but if I am to speak to-night at all, said he, I must speak now, for at a late hour I am afraid lest I should not be able to make myself heard. It is not uncommon for gentlemen impressed with their subject, to bespeak the attention of the House, by holding up to their view its great magnitude and importance. But I think I am not deceived by any warmth of imagination, when I look upon the motion now before us as the most momentous that has been agitated in this House for many years; for upon its fate the expectations of the people of England hang, with regard to the object of their numerous petitions. If the hon. baronet's motion shall be received as it came pure from his mouth, and unmixed with state-craft, then may the people hope their petitions will have the desired effect. But if it is to be frittered down into the Amendment proposed by the noble lord, there is no room to hope that any farther application from the people of England, of this kind, will avail them. We are making our last effort. We have thrown our last stake. I look with a mixture of fear and hope, and with much impatience, for the eventful issue. I entertained some hopes, from the frank manner in which the noble lord gave his consent to the introduction of the present motion, that he would seriously give it his countenance and support. Unacquainted with ministerial arts and courtly stratagems, I foolishly thought that a noble lord, in a department so high and important, would think it below his dignity to pretend a zeal in a cause, which, in his heart, he abhorred. He must greatly under-rate the understandings of gentlemen in this House, and those likewise of the people at large, if he thinks that they will be duped by his gross artifices so far as to believe, that the difficulties he holds out, are the real objections which privately influence his heart when he opposes the motion. The sum of 50,000l. is certainly not such as to yield great savings to the nation from the most rigid œconomy. But the saving of money is but a secondary object. The reduction of the influence of the crown, is the first. If by cutting off 40,000l. from the civil list, we could cut off forty voters from that phalanx, whom no considerations of public utility can influence, whom no obstacles can deter from adhering to the minister of the day, in whatever predicament he may stand, I should think we had attained an important end; for not only would the saving of that 40,000l. prevent a profusion and waste of much greater sums, but consolidate the basis of British liberty. The noble lord affirms, that nothing extraordinary has happened, which can be a specific foundation for demanding an account of the list of pensioners, and he stiles the motion new and unusual. Sir, the exigency of the times is a sufficient foundation for this demand; and the voice of the people may perhaps be found sufficient to enforce. There are precedents on your Journals, so late as the year 1703, of an account being demanded and given of the expenditure of secret service money, and I shall by and by produce them to the House. The noble lord does not refuse to lay before the House an account of about 35,000l. paid by the paymaster of the pensioners, and at the public exchequer. That is, he offers to compromise matters, by giving us somewhat we do not want, in lieu of something we desire. What we may know at public offices, he will tell us; what is a secret among courtiers and placemen, he will keep a secret. With such designs, and observing such a line of conduct, ought he to be surprized, that the petitioners in the different counties of England are, on many political subjects, very ill-informed? He acknowledges their ignorance, and makes that ignorance an argument for not giving them what they desire-the means of better information. I will tell you what you may know from the public offices, if you will not importune me to tell you what you wish to know of our secrets. The country petitioners are very ill informed, therefore it is very impertinent in them to desire the means of better information. Sir, the absurdity of these arguments cannot be palliated by all the eloquence on this side of the House, by all the art on that, nor by all the ingenuity that is contained in the gallery. A noble lord was against the motion on Tuesday night, from motives of delicacy to some of his old acquaintances, in his younger days, certain lady Bettys, and Bridgets, and Jennys in the kingdom of Ireland. But when his old friends read what he had said of them in the newspapers, they will not much thank him for his delicacy. He freely gives up his old female friends, but screens the great political defaulters, against whom and whom only this motion was levelled. Poverty is no disgrace where it is not brought on by vice or folly: it is no shame for persons nobly descended, when reduced to want through the extravagance or vices of Come of their ancestors, to receive bounty from the royal hand. I should be glad to see the list of pensioners made up of persons of that description. But truly I suspect, that it abounds with persons of far less, even than the negative merit of inoffensive |