ing the Bill, he would remark that the | and as against the owners of a similar Bill, as amended, had been for some little vessel (the "Alcedo ") belonging time before the country, and he was in- to Waterford; and, whether one or both formed that several important munici- of these convictions was not obtained palities were anxious that it should be solely upon evidence furnished by the proceeded with. He would not, there- vessel safely reaching port? fore, take it off the Paper, but communicate with hon. Members to see whether there was a probability of passing the Bill. MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1871- QUESTIONS. SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: Sir, the Nimrod and Alcedo were both detained in port as unseaworthy, were both condemned, and the owners of both were convicted, fined, and imprisoned. I think that Section 11 of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1871 should be strengthened, and extended in its application, and there was a clause in the Government Bill for that purpose. But I think the indirect operation of that clause has been effective in the way of deterring people from sending unseaworthy ships to sea. It is true that the only con MR. MAC IVER asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether he is in a position to give the names of any first class vessels trading from the port of Liverpool, other than those periodically surveyed by the Shipwright Sur-victions yet obtained under the very veyors of the Board of Trade, or by those of one or other of the Registry Societies; and, whether in regard to vessels sailing under the Passengers' Acts, the Officers of the Board of Trade continue to follow the practice of the Emigration Commissioners in regard to load line? SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: Sir, the hon. Member can obtain the information as to vessels leaving Liverpool, not surveyed by Board of Trade or any registry surveyor, better than I can, or which of such vessels are first class. All I know is that passenger ships are surveyed by Board of Trade surveyors under the Act, and some others which present themselves for survey. The Board of Trade Emigration officers fix the freeboard in each case of ships carrying emigrants. MR. MAC IVER asked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether, notwithstanding the appointment of a Prosecuting Solicitor to the Board of Trade, the provisions of Clause 11 of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1871 (whereby sending unseaworthy vessels to sea is made a misdemeanour) remain, and are likely to remain, almost altogether inoperative; whether it commonly is not, owing to the drowning of witnesses, practically impossible to obtain evidence in such cases; and, whether it is not true that, in point of fact, no convictions whatever have been obtained, except as against the owners of a small coasting schooner (the "Nimrod") belonging to Belfast, which did not go to the bottom; restricted terms of the 11th section of the Act of 1871 are those of the owners of the Nimrod and Alcedo, and, of course, in cases where ships go to the bottom evidence can rarely be obtained; but the principle of the law is to convict offenders and not to anticipate offence by inspecting all. No one doubts that there are unseaworthy ships, and probably more than have been detected ; but the Board of Trade has successfully hit many, and has very successfully avoided involving the innocent in its prosecutions. INSPECTORS OF IRISH FISHERIES REPORT.-QUESTION. MR. SULLIVAN asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to the following passage at page 19 of the Report of the Inspectors of Irish Fisheries for 1874, in reference to the northern coast of Ireland : : "By the interpretation of a certain decision of the Court of Queen's Bench, in the case of Stewart and Cubett, fishermen using the ancient mode of fishing practised on the sea coast, called half-tram, are liable to prosecution for using a fixed engine, unless they hold a certificate for a fixed net or engine from this department, which could not be granted in consequence of the fishermen not being in a position to prove their legal title, as required by the Act 5th and 6th Vic. c. 106, s. 19, to use fixed engines: "In some places, owing to the strong tides and currents, the fishermen are compelled to use their boats in proper position to enable them to the most exhausting exertion at the oar to keep work their nets, and on other parts of the coast, where many industrious men could have success "Although this amounts to a great hardship on the fishermen accustomed to follow this mode of capture under circumstances when no other could be successfully practised, and acts as a serious obstacle to fishing industry, there is no remedy unless by legislation; the field-day, when only eight men under three years' service fell out, the total number that day being 67; the majority of these had over 15 years' service. PARLIAMENT BREACH OF ORDER (MR. PLIMSOLL.) MR. PLIMSOLL: Sir, it did not take me the whole week, so generously accorded to me by this House, to perand, if it is the intention of Government ceive that it would be impossible to conto take measures with a view of remedy-duct the Government of this great couning the grievance thus pointed out by the Commissioners? SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH, in reply, said, his attention had been directed to the Report referred to by the hon. Member. The questions raised therein were by no means free from difficulty, and he trusted, during the Recess, to have the advantage of personally communicating with the Inspectors of Fisheries. ARMY-THE SUMMER MANOEUVRES. QUESTION. MR. WHITWELL asked the Secretary of State for War, What is the opinion of the Officers who superintended the recent Summer Manoeuvres as to the power of bearing fatigue and exposure manifested by the troops engaged, especially of such of the Army forces as were enlisted during the last three years respectively as compared with the soldiers of more mature age and earlier enlistment? MR. GATHORNE HARDY: Sir, in reply to the Question of the hon. Member, I beg to say I am informed that the whole force was perfectly capable of undergoing any fatigue that soldiers are liable to be called upon to bear. Throughout the Manoeuvres the men who bore fatigue and exposure best of the troops engaged were undoubtedly those who have enlisted during the last three years. The men who fell out were 136 in all. Of these, only 37 had under three years' service. The marches varied from eight to 20 miles, and on the last occasion when the Second Army Corps had to strike its camp after a night so wet that the majority of the men were unable to lie down, they marched in complete service order 15 miles, without including the time and distance gone over during try-impossible to maintain its honour and influence abroad, or the dignity and authority of this House at home-unless its debates were conducted within strict limits. I exceeded these limits on Thursday last. This being so, patriotism and common-sense-and, I may add, right feeling-alike demand that I should withdraw such terms and expressions as have transgressed Parliamentary usage, and apologize to you, Sir, and to this House for using them; and this in no grudging or reluctant spirit, but frankly and sincerely. This I now do, Sir, and hope that you and the House will accept my apology. I trust, Sir, with that respect which I feel for and have now expressed to this House, if I add that I do not withdraw any statement of fact. I now submit myself to the pleasure of the House. it will not be considered inconsistent Order for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [22nd July], "That Mr. Plimsoll, the Member for Derby, for his disorderly conduct, be reprimanded, in his place, by Mr. Speaker," read. MR. DISRAELI : Mr. Speaker-Sir, when I rose a week ago to make that Motion which you have now put from the Chair, I was unaware of any circumstances except those which were patent, in regard to the subject, to every Member present; and I felt that I was doing my duty, painful as it was, to you, Sir, and to the House. But I confess, Sir, that had I been aware then of the circumstances with which we were afterwards acquainted, had that statement been made-that authorized statement-by the Friend of the hon. Member for Derby-had that been made earlier by the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan), or had I been acquainted with the circumstances to which he referred, I should not have made the Motion which I then submitted to the House. I should have felt that the case | ferred on that occasion by the hon. was one of a peculiar character, and to Member for Derby against Members of be treated in a very different spirit. I this House. I do not think the House should have looked upon it, as I look will be justified in leaving the case in upon it now-as a case of over-strained the position in which it now stands. sensibility in a man excited by his de- This House ought not to be made the votion to a cause, which-however many arena for such discussions; this House of us may differ as to the measures is not the place in which such threats which he proposes as remedies-all must ought to be preferred; and if the hon. acknowledge to be a great and a good Member for Derby thinks it right to cause. I would even say, Sir, that make the charges which he has brought with those feelings-had the hon. Gen- forward, I think that the House is bound tleman not appeared in his place to-day, to call upon the hon. Member either to I should have declined to press for any retract entirely or to proceed to substandistinct opinion of the House. I should tiate those charges. I would venture to have advised them to postpone, and even express my belief that a more honourfor a longer period, the Motion which, able body of men than the shipowners as an act of duty, I had offered to the of this country does not exist within the consideration of the House. But I am four seas of Britain. There are, of -as I am sure we all are deeply grati- course, among all classes of the comfied to know that we have not to con- munity what are termed "black sheep," sider an issue of that character; that we and there may be black sheep amongst have seen the hon. Gentleman in his that portion of the community as well place, restored, I am happy to believe as any other; but I venture to assert from his tone and bearing, to that state that charges so broadly and openly preof temper which becomes all who are ferred by the hon. Member for Derby Members of this Assembly; and I think against the shipowners of this country I may express the general feeling of are entirely without foundation. I conboth sides of the House that they re- tend that the House, in common justice ceive the statement which he offered to to those hon. Members, is bound to deal us as a complete and satisfactory apology with the question, and call upon the for what was, no doubt, in ordinary cir- hon. Member either to entirely withdraw cumstances, a great indiscretion. The his charge or to state what measures he sentiments so expressed have been, I will adopt in proceeding with them. am sure, offered by the hon. Member for Derby in sincerity, and I trust they will be received with kindness. And, therefore, Sir, I take this, the earliest opportunity, of moving that the Order which has been read be discharged. MR. BENTINCK: I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the Motion; but I venture to suggest that there is one other consideration in connection with the question that is just being dealt with which the House is bound not to lose sight of. I do not intend to make any remarks as to the proceedings which led to this discussion; but I wish to remind the House that when the hon. Member for Derby made use of language which called for the interference of the Chair, the hon. Member took that opportunity of uttering the most grave and serious charges against Members of this House. We have now heard the apology of the hon. Member, we have heard his retractation of the language which he used, but we have not heard any retractation of the very grave charges pre MR. NEWDEGATE said, he could not help feeling the justice of the observations just made by his hon. Friend. As might have been expected, the hon. Member for Derby had expressed his regret for the very improper language he had used and the very unusual conduct he had pursued; but the hon. Member, in the last words of his apology, had re-affirmed the grave charges he had made against Members of that House. Such charges ought not, in his opinion, to be passed lightly over. They ought to be substantiated or retracted, and it ought to be shown that no cause, however good, could be advanced in that House by a process of disorder. Willing, therefore, as he was, in common with all other hon. Members, to pardon the indiscreet manner in which the hon. Member for Derby had spoken, he thought the House should call upon the hon. Gentleman to affirm the charges he had made or to withdraw them. Motion agreed to. AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS (ENGLAND) (re-committed) BILL-[Lords]-[BILL 222.] COMMITTEE. [Progress 28th July.] Bill considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) MR. DILLWYN moved that the Chairman report Progress and ask leave to sit again. His reason for taking what he admitted to be an exceptional course was, that he might be able to induce the House to postpone the other Orders of the Day until they came to the 23rd Order, which was that for the second reading of the Bill of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby. If the course which he was taking was exceptional it should be borne in mind that they were placed in an exceptional state of circumstances; and therefore they were bound, however unwilling they might be to do so, to speak out and state the circumstances which necessitated such a course as that which he and his Friends now proposed to pursue. Early in the present Session, the Government brought in the Merchant Shipping Bill-a measure which, although not a perfect one, was nevertheless a useful measure, and calculated to diminish the loss of life at sea. That Bill had been withdrawn last week at the instance of the Government themselves, and they had had on the previous evening a Bill introduced by the President of the Board of Trade to replace it. He would not now discuss the merits of that measure beyond saying that it would not accomplish what was necessary, and that the powers which it conferred upon the Board of Trade were such as ought not to be placed in the hands of underlings. He did not often trouble the House. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, if he did often trouble it, he did not often trouble it long, and therefore he would not discuss the matter further than to say that, in his opinion, the Bill of the President of the Board of Trade was a highly objectionable measure. It was true that the Bill was only for a year, and that the Prime Minister had given a distinct pledge that next year a Bill would be introduced similar to that which had been just now abandoned. But what reason had the Government to suppose that next year they would do better than they had this year? He could not conceive that they could meet Parliament under circumstances more favourable for carrying new measures. They met Parliament this year with a large and obedient majority. Hon. Gentlemen who acted as "whips" for the Government found a most subservient body to deal withmuch more so than was found by the "whips" on the other side of the House. Having such a power at their backs, what did they do? They discarded sensational legislation, and said they intended to bring before the House useful measures for social and other purposes. They had dealt with some of them, abandoned others, and had made of what might have been useful Acts mere Social Science recommendations. think the country at large approved of this course of procedure. He wanted to know what course they were now going to take. They certainly could not complain of any opposition they had received. They certainly had not received any factious opposition. He did not VISCOUNT GALWAY said, a Motion of this kind gave a great deal of liberty; but he wished to know whether the hon. Member was in Order to discuss other measures on the Motion before the House? THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member, in moving to report Progress, will not be in Order if he discusses a Bill which has been before Parliament this Session. He can, however, adduce any reasons he thinks necessary for making such a Motion. MR. DILLWYN said, that was precisely what he was attempting to show, that the Government had not met with such an opposition as would justify them in abandoning the Merchant Shipping Bill, and that generally such an opposition as they had received was not a factious one. It could not be said that the Irish Members had given a factious opposition to the Bill which they had disapproved, inasmuch as their opposition had been a bond fide one. The whole of it was this-the Government had fearfully mismanaged the Business of the country. Their Estimates were behindhand, some of their Bills had been abandoned, and others had been cut down to nothing. Still, they were thankful for some few good measures, and were in hopes the Merchant Shipping Bill would be added to the list. That, however, although an urgent mea sure, had been abandoned to make way for the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill, a measure of which no one approved, and which might very well have been allowed, with the consent of the whole agricultural body, to stand over for another year. Government had, submitted to the consideration of the House on the subject of Merchant Shipping. To my mind the case which the Government has is a complete case, and at the proper time I shall put it before the House. But this is not the opportunity, this is not the occasion, and the however, made their choice; and in-Committee ought not to give encouragestead of giving the country a full and ment to Motions like the present, partisatisfactory measure, proposed to give cularly in the existing state of affairs, them one which could be considered in when we have much to do and our time no other light than in that of a stop-gap. is so valuable. Therefore, I wish only They did not seem competent to carry to say that I give an unqualified oppoeven that measure. If they were, he sition to the Motion of the hon. Gentlewould not have asked to report Pro- man, and I call not merely upon my gress; but there was another Bill upon general supporters, but upon all who the Orders which might, he thought, be take an interest in the salutary conduct moulded into a useful measure, and of affairs and who desire to see our Busiwhich would, at all events, carry them ness transacted within a period of time safe until next year. He believed it which may be in harmony with our would have the effect of preventing the habits, to join me in the course I am loss of many ships, which was the same taking with regard to the immediate thing as preventing many women from question now before us. becoming widows and many children from becoming fatherless. The hon. Member concluded by moving that Progress be reported. MR. DISRAELI: Our neighbours have a proverb "Those who excuse themselves accuse themselves." I have never this Session accused hon. or right hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House of factious opposition; but the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) has devoted a considerable portion of his remarks to vindicating himself and his Friends from the charge of faction. I believe that was the rhetoric of an uneasy conscience. I put it to hon. Members, whatever may be their opinions on matters generally, do they think that the course of action proposed by the hon. Member for Swansea would facilitate any satisfactory or practical solution of our difficulties with regard to Merchant Shipping? The hon. Gentleman has denounced the Bill which we have brought in. I have too great a respect for the Orders and wise forms of this House to enter now into any discussion on the merits of that Bill, seeing that to the general satisfaction of the House, and certainly with the full and cheerful assent of all the Members who sit about us, to-morrow morning was fixed for the discussion of the second reading. For the same reason I will not on this occasion seek to vindicate the course which the Government have pursued in withdrawing the Bill which they originally MR. T. E. SMITH, in rising to second the Motion of the hon. Member for Swansea, said, the House would not think he was actuated by any strong desire to pass the Bill (Mr. Plimsoll's) as it stood; but he could not fail to see that a considerable change had come over public opinion, and that it would not be right to sit silent on a question which the country had greatly at heart, and which affected the Mercantile Marine of this country. Shipowners had great reason to complain of no opportunity having been afforded this Session for fully and fairly discussing the matter. It had been said there was not time for such a discussion. He had no doubt that, if necessary, hon. Members would be prepared to sacrifice a portion of their holiday, and there would be nothing very exceptional in a prolongation of the Session. On one occasion Lord Palmerston and the right hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Gladstone) kept the House of Commons sitting until September, discussing a Bill how husbands and wives who were unfaithful to their marriage vows should be dealt with. That was a small question; but this, affecting as it did the lives of sailors, was not a small one. MR. SPENCER WALPOLE rose to Order. He did not consider the hon. Member privileged on a Motion to report Progress to discuss the merits of a measure which was not before the House. If the hon. Gentleman wished to have |