he would ask him whether it was not possible that, under the Bill, some provisions should be made for the fixing of such a load line for each vessel by some competent authority? As Notices of Amendments to that effect had been given, he should not move his Resolution, and should give his support to the second reading.

that they were very lightly insured. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend in making these statements said what he would have no difficulty whatever in proving; and certainly, so far as my own feelings are concerned, I think no reproach lies on my hon. Friend in connection with the unfortunate transactions which have so much interested the House during the last 10 days. Nevertheless, MR. BATES: I rise, Sir, alike with every man must be the judge of his own regret and reluctance-regret that the honour; and if my hon. Friend still feels hon. junior Member for Derby (Mr. it would be a satisfaction to him, as a Plimsoll), when he had the opportunity, Member of this House and the Repre- did not come forward and acknowledge sentative of a large constituency, that that he had done me a grievous wrong. there should be an investigation into My maxim through life has been, when this matter by a Committee of this House, I found, either from intemperance of I shall not only not oppose such a Mo-language or ignorance, I had done antion, but shall give every facility to my other wrong, to take the earliest opporhon. Friend in the formation of the Com-tunity of acknowledging my error and mittee for such an inquiry.

asking forgiveness. Had the hon. Member for Derby followed that course yesUNSEAWORTHY SHIPS BILL.-[BILL 274.] sitated to ask your permission to put the terday, I should not have been neces

(Sir Charles Adderley, Mr. Disraeli, Mr.

Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

SECOND READING.

Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."-(Sir Charles Adderley.)

MR. MONK, who had given Notice that he would move an Amendment, to the effect that no measure would satisfy the just expectations of the country which did not contain efficient provisions against the overloading or improperly loading vessels about to proceed to sea, said, he did not so much complain of the Bill for what it contained as for what it did not contain. Everyone must have sympathized with the President of the Board of Trade, when the painful necessity of withdrawing the Merchant Shipping Bill was forced upon him by the Government. He did not blame the right hon. Gentleman; but he did blame the Cabinet, in which, unfortunately, the Board of Trade was not directly represented. He was very sorry to see a temporary measure of that nature introduced, for he considered the provisions of the Bill to be wholly inadequate to the requirements of the case. Persons quite as competent as the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade to form an opinion maintained that a compulsory load line was essential for the safety of merchant vessels, and

VOL. CCXXVI. [THIRD SERIES.]

Question on the Paper which I have read from my place to-day-namely, that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister would, on the part of the Government, Committee to inquire into the truth or assent to my request to grant me a Select falsehood of charges or allegations brought against me as a shipowner and a man, in order that you, Sir, the House of Commons, and the whole world can decide Aye or No as to my fitness longer to occupy the proud position of a seat in this House. I will take this opportunity of expressing my grateful thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for his answer to my request, and also for the kindly expressions he has used towards myself, and I may assure the right hon. Gentleman that in the result he will find that, although I am aware he has only a very poor supporter in me as far as making myself heard in debate is concerned, yet he has a truthful one, and one whom he may safely add to his already other numerous Friends in the House. I said, Sir, I rose with reluctance, and that is because yesterday week I asked the indulgence of hon. Members while I said a few words in reply to the attack made upon me without any warning or notice of any kind by the hon. junior Member for Derby, and which was so cheerfully conceded to me by the House. Sir, I am obliged again to-day to ask the same indulgence, and I trust before I sit down hon. Members will consider I have not

I

asked this unreasonably. When I made | special star denoting being heavier plated the statement I did on Thursday last, I than the rules of Lloyd's require, also was not prepared to answer the charges so fully as I could have wished, and simply for this reason-that from the period I first had the honour to appear here as one of the Representatives of the good people of the borough of Plymouth, I have devoted my time to their service, and taken no active management whatever in my business affairs. I do not make this statement with a view of shirking any responsibility; just the reverse; for I fully confirm every action of those I left in my place; and if I had to do the work over again, I should just | act as they had done. They are, SirI am proud to say it-my sons. I have alluded to these matters for the purpose of showing hon. Members that I was hardly in a position on Thursday week last to reply so fully as I now can do to the statement made by the hon. junior Member for Derby, and to repel, not only by my own assertions, but by proof of documents that I hold in my hand, a statement that I hesitate not to designate as cruel, unwarranted, and untruthful. First, Sir, I would correct a slight inaccuracy in what I said last Thursday week-namely, that I had lost five of the six ships named by the hon. Member for Derby in the years 1873, 1874, and 1875. Since that day I have learnt that, although one of the ships left England in June, 1873, yet she left Calcutta early in 1874. On her return, therefore, she could not have been lost in 1873. However, I think this is immaterial. The ships were lost in 1874 or 1875. I also stated that the six ships named were classed A 1. They were so classed; but, in addition to this, I find four of the six were also classed double A 1 in Lloyd's Register, three of them with a star, and which denotes they were constructed of heavier or stronger material than required by Lloyd's rules. I have taken the particulars of each ship from the certificates kindly furnished me by the secretaries to the classification committees, and to whom I am indebted; for, as hon. Members will understand, the originals of these documents were all lost in the respective ships; and, with the permission of the House, I will occupy their time only a few moments longer by reading these particulars. The Melbourne, iron ship, 1,636 tons register, was classed *AA 1 in Lloyd's, with the

classed A1 20 years in the Liverpool Surveyors' or Underwriters' Book, as shown by the duplicate certificate now in my hand-she was specially surveyed by Lloyd's in Dundee in June, 1873, as also shown by the duplicate certificate now in my hand. This ship sailed, I believe, in June, 1873, for Calcutta direct, and, if I am not mistaken, sailed again from Calcutta for London in January, 1874, along with two other vessels of equally high class, one of which also belonged to me-namely, the William Fairbairn. This vessel put into the Mauritius a wreck. The other two were never heard of. The Tethys, iron ship, 1,219 tons register, *AA1 at Lloyd's, built under special survey and classed with the star, denoting extra strength, also classed A 1 in red in the Liverpool Book, as shown by the official certificate I now hold in my hand-this ship was specially surveyed by Lloyd's in London on the 24th February, 1874, and sailed for Sydney with a general cargo in March, 1874; arrived at Sydney, all well; loaded a cargo of coal for San Francisco, and sailed sometime about August; was never heard of afterwards, and whether lost in 1874 or 1875 no one can say positively. The Euxine, iron ship, 1,594 tons register, classed A1 in the Liverpool Book for 20 years, and continued for eight years as first-classthis ship loaded a cargo of coals in the Tyne in June, 1874, for the Peninsular and Oriental Company, sailed a few days afterwards along with two other iron ships, and one wooden ship. The Euxine and the two other iron ships of the highest class were burnt at sea about the same time and about the same place; the wooden ship arrived at her destination, Bombay. The Nora Greame, iron ship, of 1,001 tons register, classed A 1 20 years in the Liverpool Book, as per certificate I hold in my hand, specially surveyed in October, 1874, as shown by this certificate, loaded a cargo of coals and sailed shortly afterwards, was spoken or seen off Madeira, all well, and never heard of afterwards; whether lost in 1874 or 1875 no one can ever say. The Foundling, iron ship, 1,186 tons register, classed AA1 in Lloyd's, as shown by the duplicate official certificate from Lloyd's I have here, and also classed at Liverpool, and specially surveyed by

Lloyd's on the 14th of September, 1874, | ralty brokers-sworn to before the maas also shown in the official document, gistrates on the 26th of July, 1875, loaded a cargo of coal, sailed from Liver- stating that the six ships alluded to by pool in June, 1874, and was burnt at sea the hon. junior Member for Derby were in November, and has been repeatedly worth in the market £105,235, or seen and reported as being still afloat, £13 2s. 6d. per ton; consequently, at but, of course, a mere shell. The Sydney the time of sailing they were uninsured Dacres, iron ship, 1,380 tons register, to the extent of £41,235. Now, it is classed at Lloyd's *AA 1, built under not every shipowner that dare make special survey, as shown by the official such an admission. All shipowners have document I hold in my hand, and which not been blessed with the world's gear also shows she was specially surveyed to the extent that I have been. But, in February, 1874, she is also classed Sir, though poor, there are many honest in the Liverpool Book A 1 20 years, in ones, I know; aye, Sir, and as good as red. This ship sailed from Liverpool, I the best of us. But, Sir, what might think, for California, arrived there safely, have been the result, if such an one had loaded a cargo of wheat for Liverpool, been attacked as I have been? Why, was abandoned off the Skelligs, West if he had stated probably the truth reCoast of Ireland, in February, 1875, garding his losses, his credit would have afterwards picked up by tugs sent for gone, and he would have been ruined. her, and brought to Liverpool, dis- If he had not proved his loss by the loss charged her cargo, rudder replaced, and of his ships, he would have been conall damage made good by Messrs. Laird demned by such a statement as made by Brothers, and is now on her voyage the hon. Member for Derby. I trust, again to California. It was necessary Mr. Speaker, I have made this matter this ship should be valued in her clear to you and hon. Members. I trust damaged state, in order to ascertain for I have proved beyond a shadow of a the salvors the value of the property doubt that the accusation brought against saved. For this purpose the salvors me by the hon. junior Member for Derby appointed one valuer, and the owners for is as unjust as it is untrue, and in conaccount of underwriters appointed the clusion I have only to thank hon. Memother valuer. Ultimately, they agreed bers for allowing me to make this statefor the purposes of the suit that the ment, and to say that I have made it value in her damaged state was £14,000 from original documents now in my odd. The ship was only insured for hand, and I beg every hon. Member to £12,000. Consequently, I submit that do me the favour to examine and comthe only mode I have of proving pare them. what I stated the other night-namely, as to my mode of insurance is that one out of the six ships condemned by the hon. junior Member for Derby was providentially not lost-and that in her damaged state she was valued at £2,400 odd more than insured for, and that when repaired and made ready for sea she was worth £6,000 more than she was, or now is, on her present voyage insured for. Now, Sir, I come to a vital point-the insurance. The six ships named by the hon. junior Member for Derby were insured for no less and no more when ready for sea with stores and provisions on board for 12 months than £64,000. The ships registered 8,016 tons, which gives £7 198. 11d. per ton, and, as already said, all classed A 1 20 years. But I find that four of the six were also classed in Lloyd's AA 1; three of them with the extra *. I hold in my hand an affidavit from the Admi

MR. PLIMSOLL said, that when silence was desirable and seemed likely to facilitate the progress of the Bill brought in by the Government to remedy the state of things which existed in the Merchant Marine, he observed silence. On the present occasion, however, it appeared to him that a short statement on the subject of the Bill before the House would not hinder Business, but would rather facilitate it and leave them in a much better position to deal with the matter in Committee than they would be in if he forebore addressing the House. He could assure the House that he had read the Bill with the utmost possible pleasure, because it appeared to him that if the clauses of which his hon. Friend the Member for Pembroke (Mr. E. J. Reed) had given Notice were' adopted, they would form just the other half of the measure, for the matter as it now stood before the

House seemed like a steam-engine with- | of 1839, as to the crews being reduced out a governor. The Bill would entrust to the necessity of existing on the reextraordinary powers to men utterly irre- mains of their comrades, had occurred. sponsible, who would have to some ex- This measure was re-enacted and extent to work in the dark, or on inaccu- tended in 1853, but then camp a change rate information-sometimes, perhaps, to which it was necessary to refer. In capriciously. If, however, the Amend- or about 1847 a powerful agitation prements of his hon. Friend were adopted, vailed to break down monopoly in the the officers in question would know interests of the public. A great number exactly what they were doing, and would of persons became so enamoured of Free exercise their enormous powers with Trade and freedom of commerce that in wisdom and discretion. It was very the course they had adopted they disredesirable that the gentlemen for that garded the spirit of those who had orihighly responsible position should be ginated the agitation and clung to the first-class men, and they should be latter merely, and, under the name of selected with the utmost discrimination, Free Trade, allowed merchants and shipand should exercise their powers with owners to do as they liked-forgetful of the utmost caution. They should be the objects of those who had first advogentlemen of position who would hold cated Free Trade and to the changes their own against the shipowners, and which had since proved so beneficial. It not such persons as many of the present was in no unkind spirit that he referred surveyors, people of no weight in the to the course taken by the right hon. ports, and who had no authority over Gentleman the Member for Birmingthe shipowners, and who were some- ham in opposing the Factory Acts when times carried off to sea and put on a they were first brought before that boat in mid-ocean to find their way home House. The right hon. Gentleman, howas best they could. He was encouraged ever, was a statesman and possessed to hope the proper men would be ap- large sympathies, and was not ashamed pointed by the names which were on the subsequently to avow that he had been back of the Bill, for he noticed with mistaken in adopting that course. But great pleasure that the Premier and the there were other smaller men of shalChancellor of the Exchequer were jointly lower capacity who were not so easily sponsors with the right hon. Gentleman impressed by the circumstances, and one at the head of the Board of Trade for of those unfortunately acquired considerthe measure. It would be necessary able power in one of the administrative that he should, with the leave of the Departments of the Government; and House, make a few remarks as to the in 1862 the legislation, the effects of present position of the Mercantile Marine. which he had described, was swept away It had not always been what it was now. without notice to the public. He had It was in a very bad position in 1839 turned to the debates upon the subject, and the previous years. In the year he and he found, that with the exception had named, however, a Select Commit- of a word or two uttered by the then tee was appointed to inquire, and they President of the Board of Trade in the found the state of things so bad that on House of Commons, on leave to bring their Report a Bill was brought in by in a Bill, no word of reference was made the Government and passed into an Act to such a vital change in the law. Yet the same Session to remedy certain evils he might say, without exaggeration, that connected with the Mercantile Marine. it might be computed that nearly 20,000 That Act was passed for one year, and of Her Majesty's subjects had been was re-enacted in 1840. It was again drowned in consequence of that night's re-enacted in 1843, after inquiry by a work in the House, when a Schedule Royal Commission. In both cases it of the Act passed in silence, and, prowas found that the losses were less than bably, nearly £30,000,000 of property in previous years, more especially as re- had gone to the bottom of the sea. garded timber-laden ships, where the He could not trust himself to speak of number of the losses was reduced from that in any terms whatever at that mo56 to 23, with the saving of 200 lives ment. In the Autumn of 1872, in Monof seamen. In no one instance was it treal, there was a law passed prohibiting found that any of those horrible cases the loading of grain in bulk, but the stated in the Report of the Committee penalty for infringing that was only

$40. Several large steamers thus loaded | words of the clauses in the old Act, went to sea, and all were lost. In which would give them firm ground the early part of 1873 the Minister of under their feet. Now, as to the survey Marine brought into the House of Com- of unclassed ships. It might be enlarged mons there a Bill, by which the penalty a little, as the Bill was only for 12 was raised to $800, and ships were ab- months, with great advantage, he solutely prohibited from sailing in that thought. In Lloyd's List there were condition, and the consequence had been 15,000 ships, of which 7,000 were unthat in the last two winters not one grain classed, and 2,654 of the unclassed ships laden ship from Montreal had come to had forfeited their class for lack of regrief, and not one either from that port pairs. He would ask the Government laden with timber. Shortly after similar to take power, at any rate, to survey action was taken by Boston and New them during the 12 months. Was there York, and from those two ports not one any reason whatever to suppose that the vessel was reported missing during the hidden history of ships was different winters of 1873 and 1874. What he now from what it was years ago? What would ask the House to do with the Bill was the state of things in former times? was to restore that salutary law, and to From a Parliamentary Blue Book, which put them back into the position in which could not be called sensational, he found it was shown that legislation saved nearly that in a ship called the Lucy, after 19 two-thirds of the losses which then days' privation, only two of the crew afflicted the country. Before concluding were left alive. In another case the what he had to say upon this point, he crew were left without water or proviwould point out that the extra cost to sions until reduced to the necessity of the shippers from loading grain cargoes sacrificing four of their number by lot in bags instead of in bulk was only 6d. for the preservation of the rest. In the per quarter, subject to a reduction by Earl of Kellie the second mate and two the sale of the bags on arrival. The men were reported to be starved to Bill which had been introduced by the death; and in the Caledonia, two who Government was intended to endure for were reported to be near death had their one year only, and he thought, therefore, throats cut for the sake of their blood. that it might be safely supplemented by In another, four bodies were found the Amendments which would be pro- under the maintop all dead, with part of posed by the hon. Member for Pem- one of their comrades hung up, as if in broke, which were necessary to prevent a butcher's shop. In the Anna Maria, overloading, which was recognized as part of the leg of a woman was found, being a serious source of loss. The ex- which had evidently served the crew for perience of the Indian Government on food. Probably, while he was addressthe point was most valuable, as it showed ing the House, similar scenes of horror that where a freeboard of three inches and suffering were occurring. On the for every foot of immersion was re- whole, he thought that he had made quired, out of 200 ships per annum em- out his case, and had shown the necesployed, there had been only a loss of sity which existed for fresh legislation two, which had been destroyed by fire. on this subject, and for the adoption of It would be necessary to have a load the additional clauses which would be line introduced into the Bill, for this proposed to be added by the hon. Memreason that though the surveyors ber for Pembroke to the Government might prevent ships from going from Bill in Committee. Before the lapse their own ports in an improper position, of the ensuing year, he was satisfied they could not do so when loading that the House would be in possesabroad. Since so much attention had sion of such evidence on the subject been paid to this matter, the loss of out- as would make them grieve that the ward-bound ships had much decreased, question had not been more effectually whilst the losses of homeward-bound dealt with years and years ago. He vessels had much increased. Many of would repeat that such scenes as he had them came with such a cargo across the alluded to were going on now, probably Bay of Biscay that the wonder was how at that very moment; and he asked the they got home at all. That fact simpli- House to stop them. By doing so, they fied the action of the House very much, would stop an enormous loss of life; and because it could adopt the identical while he would rather appeal on this