If

concerning a long-agitated subject. the subscribing parties to the Petition had not been able to form any decided opinion, during the space of four months, it was natural to ask what additional portion of time they could in reason desire, for the purpose of working up their sentiments to a conclusive point; but, even if the moment of their determination were almost at hand, the House might still go on with the discussion; in the progress of which it would be found whether the ideas of manufacturers, who doubtless merited every respectful attention, ought to operate against the full establishment of the Treaty. Their representations must, indeed, carry the most powerful weight, could they at all prove that it militated against the interests of the trading part of the community.

Mr. Fox said, he felt it difficult to conceive how it was possible for any petition more unexceptionably to claim the serious attention of the House than the present, signed as it was by so numerous and respectable a body of their mercantile fellow-subjects. They were men of the first importance, and what they required was at once temperate and just. They had heard that the vote of this night was in some degree to conclude the discussion; now though this idea, thrown out very artfully, was a doctrine to which he could not subscribe, it was their duty to pay respect to the application of men so intelligent and so deeply interested. A more respectable name than that of Mr. Walker did not exist. In addition to this eminent authority on the cotton branch, the Petition was signed by several names of high credit in the glass branch, as well as others greatly affected by the Treaty. He needed not to point out the striking affinity between this and the first petition presented from the same body against the Irish propositions. Upon that occasion, as at present, were found the particularly reputable names of a Walker in the cotton, a Holmes in the glass, and a Milner in the cotton manufactory. There, as in this instance, the Chamber prayed for time; and the consequence was salvation not only to the manufacturers of this country, but to the commercial opulence of the empire. Such subscribing petitioners were to be considered as the deputies and representatives of manufacturing interests, and, under that description, entitled to every attention which it was in the power of the House to show them.

Mr. Pitt observed, that at least four months had elapsed subsequently to the publication of the Treaty. If, therefore, the Chamber had received an alarm, there was full time for information; but on the contrary, they had been completely silent until this day. It was impossible, therefore, that they could harbour the idea of postponing the discussion. The Chamber of Commerce would still have the opportunity of procuring the information they required, and of collecting the sense of the country; and surely their doubts would j come more properly into discussion in the committee expected shortly to sit upon the consideration of the Treaty.

Mr. Sheridan observed, that a material difference must arise, could it be taken for granted that the manufacturers would have time for inquiry, and that this night's discussion was not to be concluded with resolutions committing the House in any degree to the acceptation of the Treaty. For his own part he objected to the notion which had gone abroad, that the House was to be involved by this night's vote. He contended, on the contrary, that the House would not be committed to the acceptation of the Treaty until they had passed the last vote on the last Bill, which was necessary to the carrying into execution the Treaty. He begged at the same time to call the attention of the House to one material point, in which he believed this important subject had not as yet been considered. The Irish propositions had been mentioned. If this Treaty should pass, would it not become absolutely necessary that those propositions, reprobated and rejected as they were, must be revived, or at least that a system of intercourse of some kind must be established between this and the sister kingdom; for it was totally impossible that the present system should continue if the Treaty with France took place. He wished therefore to learn explicitly from the right hon. gentleman, whether, in case the Treaty of France was carried into effect, it was his intention to revive the Irish propositions? The right hon. gentleman contended that the Treaty had been between four and five months before the public. He denied this fact. It had been but fourteen days; for until the Convention appeared, the Treaty could not be said to be before them.

The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.

Debate in the Cammons on the Treaty of Commerce with France.] The order of the day being then read, for the House to resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider of so much of his Majesty's Speech to both Houses, upon the 23d of January last, as relates to the Treaty of Navigation and Commerce between his Majesty and the Most Christian King, the House `resolved itself into the said committee; Mr. Beaufoy in the chair.

Mr. Pitt then rose:-He trusted that when the House considered the magnitude of the subject, they would not only forgive him for trespassing upon their patience with an extended investigation, but would encourage him in his attempts to throw all necessary lights upon its nature, and its possible effects. Convinced that he could not enter into details without employing much time, he should, on this account, avoid needlessly prolonging the hours of debate, by the introduction of any extraneous matter whatsoever. If the Treaty should be found to comprehend principles hostile to the received notions and doctrines of British commerce, and that thereby a general spirit of objection and discontent had spread abroad over the country, he was assured that it would little avail him to stand up in that committee, and argue for the acceptance of a nego ciation, which was generally offensive. The committee would not be seduced, by any thing which he might be able to advance, from the exercise of their clear and independent judgments; and certainly they would not be bound in any degree to the confirmation of this treaty, unless, after the most deliberate and solemn discussion, they should perceive it supported by the most rational principles, and by the most incontrovertible policy; and so finding it, declare their sense of it, by adopting the means necessary for carrying it into effect. On this occasion, he should not hesitate again earnestly to contend, that the treaty, in its commercial aspect, had been between four and five months before the public, and it was on that ground that he had confidence in going into the committee, and commencing its discussion. For if, after remaining between four and five months in the hands of every manufacturer and merchant in the kingdom, after being freely discussed in various publications, it should turn out that no one complaint had been heard; that no great manufacturing body of men had taken the

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alarm; and that nothing whatever had happened to prevent the discussion, save the petition presented upon that day, praying for time, from a few manufacturers collected in a certain chamber of commerce, he should certainly think himself justified in calling the attention of the committee to the discussion. If even that very Chamber who thus presented the petition, did not at the same time state any reasons against the treaty, but leaned itself simply on the vague and unsatisfactory ground, that after four or five months they hot had time he was sensible that en ld not think it a substant and for delay; after the expiration of such a period of time, pared that all upon which they had determined was to entertain doubts, and of course, avoid bringing forward an opinion upon the subject. But another transaction had been mentioned and coupled with this, he must say, in a very singular manner-he meant the Irish propositions. Did the hon. gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) mean to insinuate that there was between this treaty and th Surely he did not intend to conclude from that experience, that the manufacturers were a body of men slow to apprehend their own danger, or to communicate their apprehensions to Parliament; or did the hon. gentleman wish to keep the resem blance in another way? Those propositions, after being canvassed, discussed, and debated, were at length, on the most solemn deliberation, and he thought with the most perfect wisdom, approved by the Parliament of Great Britain, as a set of resolutions salutary and political for the basis of an intercourse. But those propositions, so evidently opposed by the manufacturers here, had in the end been rejected by another kingdom as injurious and inimical to her interests. Was this the part of the precedent which the hon. gentleman meant to select? But, in truth, there was no similarity. The manufacturers, who were in general not a little watchful of their interests, and he rejoiced that they were vigilant, had taken no alarm. The woollen trade, so properly dear to this country, had manifested no species of apprehension. The manufacturers of cambrics, of glass, the distillery, and other members and branches of our domestic trade, though, in fact, particularly affected by the treaty, had made no complaint, much less had they received any notices from the manufacturers, from the hard

ware, the pottery, and other branches, of any objection.

If after four or five months nothing like an objection had been heard; and if at the same time gentlemen were sensible, that in many parts of the country, many descriptions of men were now eagerly looking forward for the completion of the business, forming exclusive speculations on the foot of it, and all waiting in readiness and anxiety to avail themselves of the benefits, and with themselves greatly to benefit their country, he begged of gentlemen not think that the rashly entered into the consi on sub

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lt himself justified in declaring, that a reference to the case of the Irish propositions, made more for his arguments, and against his opponents, than was perhaps suspected. While the propositions were agitating, and they were not surely more injurious than gentlemen would re. present this treaty to be, the manufacturers of the kingdom came forward to Parliament time when they expeention and indulgence from the House, exhibited themselves the most incontrovertible, and indeed, laudable proof, that, while they fancied themselves endangered, or saw their interests at stake, they possessed the most unremitting vigilance in watching over their concerns, and at least a sufficient degree of firmness in maintaining their objections. There was not a body which thought itself concerned but instantly took alarm, and joined in the general remonstrances. Was it not fair then to conclude, that if any such apprehensions at present existed, instead of supineness and negligence, they would apply to Parliament again with redoubled earnestness; but, so far were the public from entertaining any dislike, or even doubts, concerning the merits of this treaty, that from the very best information, he could assert, in the presence of many of the members from great commercial towns, that in most parts of the country they looked with sanguine wishes for the speedy ratification of it. Great and various were the objects of this treaty; but the resolutions which he should have the honour to propose that evening, would lie in a narrow compass, and be easily embraced. It was not his intention to draw the committee to any general resolution which should involve the measures necessary to be taken in future, nor need gentlemen be alarmed by the groundless idea

of being committed by one question to all the important details necessary to the full establishment of the system. Several observations had been made respecting the navigation laws and maritime regulations, upon which, as they did not come within the scope of his motion to the committee, and more properly belonged to the prerogative and the executive government, he would forbear offering any remarks. He meant only to submit to them certain leading resolutions, tending merely to the commercial establishment, and they were founded on the 6th and 11th articles of the Treaty. The result of the Resolutions was precisely this:

1. That the committee should agree, that all articles not enumerated and specified in the tariff should be importable into this country, on terms as favourable as those of the most countenanced nation, excepting always the power of preferring Portugal, under the provision of the Methuen Treaty.

2. That if any future treaty should be made with any other foreign power, in any articles either mentioned or not mentioned in the present Treaty, France shall be put on the same, or on as favourable. terms as that power. And

3. That all the articles enumerated and specified in the tariff shall be admitted into this country on the duties, and with the stipulations stated in the sixth article.

He thus confined himself to the commercial part of the Treaty; nor was even all which belonged to that part, comprehended in the scope of these Resolutions. It would be necessary for the committee to take into their consideration the relative state of the two kingdoms. On the first blush of the matter, he believed he might venture to assert it, as a fact generally admitted, that France had the advantage in the gift of soil and climate, and in the amount of her natural produce; that, on the contrary, Great Britain was, on her part, as confessedly superior in her manufactures and artificial productions. Undoubtedly, in point of natural produce, France had greatly the advantage in this Treaty. Her wines, brandies, oils, and vinegars, particularly the two former articles, were matters of such important value in her produce, as greatly and completely to destroy all idea of reciprocity as to natural produce-we perhaps having nothing of that kind to put in competition, but simply the article of beer. But, on the contrary, was it not a fact as demon

It was a great boon procured on easy terms, and as such we ought to view it. It was not merely a consoling, but an exhilarating speculation to the mind of an Englishman, that, after the empire had been engaged in a competition the most arduous and imminent of any that ever threatened a nation-after struggling for its existence, still it maintained its rank and efficacy so firmly, that France, finding they could not shake her, now opened its arms, and offered a beneficial connexion with her on easy, liberal, and advantageous terms.

strably clear, that Britain, in its turn, possessed some manufactures exclusively her own, and that in others she had so completely the advantage of her neighbour as to put competition at defiance? This then was the relative condition, and this the precise ground, on which it was imagined that a valuable correspondence and connexion between the two might be established. Having each its own and distinct staple having each that which the other wanted; and not clashing in the great and leading lines of their respective riches, they were like two great traders in different branches, they might enter into a traffick which would prove mutually beneficial to them. Granting that a large quantity of their natural produce would be brought into this country, would any man that we should not send more cottons by the direct course now settled, than by the circuitous passages formerly used more of our woollens, than while restricted in their importation to particular ports, and burthened under heavy duties? Would not more of our earthen ware, and other articles, which, under all the disadvantages that they formerly suffered, still, from their intrinsic superiority, force their way regu larly into France, now be sent thither? and would not the aggregate of our manufactures be greatly and eminently benefited in going to this market loaded only with duties from twelve to ten, and in one instance with only five per cent.? If the advantages in this respect were not so palpable and apparent as to strike and satisfy every mind interested in the business, would not the House have had very different petitions on their table than that presented this day? The fact was apparent. The article (sadlery) charged the most highly in the tariff, gave no sort of alarm. The traders in this article, though charged with a duty of fifteen per cent. knew their superiority so well, that they cheerfully embraced the condition, and conceived that the liberty would be highly advantageous to them. A market of so many millions of people a market so near and prompt-a market of expeditious and certain return-of necessary and extensive consumption, thus added to the manufactures and commerce of Britain, was an object which we ought to look up to with eager and satisfied ambition. To procure this, we certainly ought not to scruple to give liberal conditions. We ought not to hesitate, because this, which must be so greatly advantageous to us, must also have its benefit for them. [VOL, XXVI.]

We had agreed by this treaty to take from France, on small duties, the luxuries of her soil, which, however, the refinements of ourselves had converted into necessaries. The wines of France were already so much in the possession of our markets, that, with all the high duties paid by us, they found their way to our tables. Was it then a serious injury to admit these luxuries on easier terms? The admission of them would not supplant the wines of Portugal, nor of Spain, but would supplant only an useless and pernicious manufacture in this country. He stated the enormous increase of the import of French wines lately, and instanced the months of July and August, the two most unlikely months in the year, to show the increase of this trade. The committee would not then perceive any great evil in admitting this article on easy terms. The next was brandy, and here it would be inquired whether the diminution of duty was an eligible measure. He believed they would also agree with him on this article, when they viewed it with regard to smuggling The reduction of the duties would have material effect on the contraband in this article: it was certain that the legal importation bore no proportion to the quantity clandestinely imported; for the legal importation of brandy was no more than 600,000 gallons, and the supposed amount of the smuggled, at the most rational and best-founded estimate, was between three and four hundred thousand gallons. Seeing then that this article had taken such complete possession of the state of the nation, it might be right to procure to the State a greater advantage from the article than heretofore, and to crush the contraband by legalizing the market.

The oil and vinegar of France were comparatively small objects, but, like the former, they were luxuries which bad taken the shape of necessaries, and which [2 C]

we could suffer nothing from accepting on easy terms. These were the natural produce of France to be admitted under this treaty. Their next inquiry should be to see if France had any manufactures peculiar to herself, or in which she so greatly excelled as to give us alarm on account of the Treaty, viewing it in that aspect. Cambric was the first which stared him in the face, but which, when he looked around him, and observed the general countenance of the committee, he could hardly think it necessary to detain them a moment upon. The fact was, it was an article in which our competition with France had ceased, and there was no injury in granting an easy importation to that which we would have at any rate. In no other article was there any thing very formidable in the rivalry of France. Glass would not be imported to any amount. In particular kinds of lace, indeed, they might have the advantage, but none which they would not enjoy independent of the treaty and the clamours about millinery were vague and unmeaning, when, in addition to all these benefits, we included the richness of the country with which we were to trade with its superior population of twenty millions to eight, and of course a proportionate consumption, together with its vicinity to us, and the advantages of quick and regular returns, who could hesitate for a moment to applaud the system, and look forward with ardour and impatience to its speedy ratification? The possession of so extensive and safe a market must improve our commerce, while the duties transferred from the hands of smugglers to their proper channel would benefit our revenue-the two sources of British opulence and British power.

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Viewing the relative circumstances of the two countries then in this way, he saw no objection to the principle of the exchange of their respective commodities. He saw no objection to this, because he perceived and felt that our superiority in the tariff was manifest. The excellence of our manufactures was unrivalled, and in the operation must give the balance to England. But it was said, that the manufacturers dreaded the continuance of this superiority. They were alarmed at the idea of a competition with Ireland, and consequently they must be more under apprehensions at the idea of a rivalry with France. He always did think, and he must still continue to think, that the opinions of the manufacturers on this point

were erroneous. They raised the clamour in respect to Ireland chiefly, he imagined, because they perceived no certain and positive advantage by the intercourse to counterbalance this precarious and uncertain evil. In this instance, their consent to the treaty did not proceed from a blind acquiescence, for they never would be blind to their interest; but now that they saw so certain and so valuable an advantage to be reaped, the benefits being no longer doubtful, they were willing to hazard the probability of the injury.

Some gentlemen thought proper to contend, that no beneficial treaty could be formed between this country and France, because no such treaty had ever been formed, and because, on the contrary, commercial intercourses with her had always been injurious to Engla This reasoning was completely fallacious, though it sounded large For, in the first place, we had not, during a long series of years, experienced any commercial connexion with France, and could not therefore form a rational estimate of its merits; and secondly, though it might be true that a commercial intercourse founded on the treaty of Utrecht would have been injurious, it did not follow that this would prove the same; for at that time the manufactures, in which we now excelled, had hardly existence, but were on the side of France instead of being against her. The tariff did not then, as now, comprehend all the articles in which we comparatively excelled; but in addition to the produce of France, which at all periods must be the same, she had the balance of manufactures also in her favour. At that period also the prejudices of our manufacturers against France were in their rage, and corresponded with the party violence of the day in the reprobation of the measure; but so far was the Parliament from entertaining the opinion of no treaty being otherwise than detrimental, which could be made with France, that they went up with an address to her Majesty, praying her to renew commercial negociations with the Court of France. It was not correctly stated, neither, that we had invariably considered it as our policy to resist all connexion with France. She had been more jealous of us than we of her-Prohibitions began on the part of France, and we only retaliated in our own defence. These parts of his subject he felt it difficult to drop, without again adverting to the effect of this treaty on our