[630 than any merchant could be supposed to on each article, amounting as nearly as be-had, for the ease and convenience of possible to the aggregate of all the various the traders and merchants, arranged a subsidies already paid; only in general general view of the Customs, in the form where a fraction was found in any of the of a book of rates, which was, to a certain sums, to change the fraction for the nearest degree, found to be useful; but the utility integral number, usually taking the higher, arising from such a compilation, could not rather than the lower. There could, he be of any very long standing, when it was said, be no great objection to this very considered that there was, every session of trifling rise in the amount of the duties, as parliament, some alteration or another either such rise, or an equivalent diminumade in several of the duties, and each of tion must take place, or the confusion those alterations following the old prin- consequent on fractions still continue. ciple, totally unhinged and overturned the This advance from the fractions to the use of every preceding printed calculation. integral would produce an increase in the But even if this disadvantage did not at- revenue to the amount of about 20,000l. tend the Custom-house officers book of per annum, and would lay upon the public rates, it yet only tended to relieve, in aa burthen most amply compensated by very inconsiderable degree, the grievance complained of; for although the calculations contained in the book might have been ever so accurate, yet the merchant could not go to the Custom-house and enter his goods immediately, by paying down the sum stated in the book of rates, but must wait, as if such book never existed, until all the usual calculations on each subsidy had been made, the several acts by which such subsidies had been granted having so directed; and thus, in point of time, nothing was saved by the merchant. The other cause, by which the inconvenience was in a degree obviated, was one to which, for many very good reasons, as speedy a stop as possible should be put. The officers of the Customs, having, from constant practice and experience, acquired a greater facility in making the necessary calculations than the merchant could be supposed to have done, were the only persons to whom the merchant could apply for assistance and direction. Thus, the merchant was not only in a great degree left at the mercy of the officers, but the officers themselves, who were intended to be a check upon the merchants, were forced to become their agents-a procedure repugnant to every principle of reason and policy. Those abuses which he had stated to exist in the Customs, obtained also, though not to the same extent, in the Excise, and, in a certain degree, in one other great branch of revenue, the Stamps. He should therefore include them in his general plan. The mode by which he proposed to remedy this great abuse was, by abolishing all the duties which now subsisted in this confused and complex manner, and to substitute in their stead, one single duty the great relief which the merchant would experience from the whole of the plan. Still there would be some diminution of revenue in certain branches of it, where it might be found expedient to substitute the lower instead of the higher integral number in place of the fraction. He here enlarged on the advantages of the plan, as well with regard to the convenience which the merchant and officers of the Customhouse would experience, as the benefit which must result to the revenue by freeing it from the clogs nnd fetters with which it was loaded, and instead of the obscurity which it now laboured under, rendering it so clear and distinct, that no mistake or error could possibly take place in any future inquiries which might be had upon the subject. In some few articles it was his intention to introduce regulations of much greater extent than what he had stated, particularly in certain species of timber, which he would explain more at length to the committee when he came to the resolution on that head. And in respect to the duty on drugs he should propose to make a very considerable reduction, as the duties on those articles were so high as almost to drive the fair trader out of the market, and throw the whole into the hands of the smuggler. On such goods as were not to be rated, in consequence of this new system, it was his intention to propose certain duties proportioned to the sworn value of the articles, which duties, in general, would not exceed the sum of 27 per cent. It might now be proper to observé in what degree the consolidation of the duties might affect the security of the public creditor. As many of the subsidies which it was proposed to abolish were particularly appropriated to the pay. ment of certain specified annuitants, and as some of the annuitants were entitled to a valuable priority of payment, it was doubted whether such right of priority might not be infringed upon by abolishing those funds from which such prior payments were to issue, and consolidating them all into one general mass. But, this valuable priority it was by no means his intention to affect, as the plan which he should adopt would leave it at the option of all persons enjoying such right of priority to continue in possession of it, or relinquish it, as they might think proper. This priority of payment arose from the terms of the several loans by which certain funds were raised for the payment of the interest of such loans, and the surplusses of those funds to go to the aggregate fund, out of which aggregate fund other annuities were to be paid. The right of priority might as well be maintained by paying them all out of one general fund, as by paying first one set of annuitants out of several funds, and the remaining annuitants out of the surplusses of those funds, provided that, out of that general fund, the first payments were actually made to those annuitants entitled to that priority. No injury could possibly arise to the public credit by such an arrangement; and no real benefit resulted to those who enjoyed the right of prior payment, the resources of the country being equally bound for the payment of the whole; and the payments already made to the annuitants were not paid out of the respective funds appropriated to the different annuities; but the whole of that business was, at this moment, conducted at the bank, nearly in the same manner as it would be, when the whole of the revenue was to be consolidated into one general fund. The State, he apprehended, had a right, consistent with its good faith to its creditors, to make such alterations in the nature of its securities as it should see to be convenient and necessary, provided that on every such alteration it took care to substitute such a security as should be substantially equivalent to that which was so changed; and he challenged the attention of the committee to a most particular observance of every part of the plan that was in any way connected with the public faith, in order that it might be most religiously adhered to: but to dispute this right of the Legislature, to modify the security which it afforded to the public creditors, would, if carried to its full ex tent, absolutely preclude the possibility of ever making any alteration in any tax which might be once adopted. There could not, however, he flattered himself, be any ground of objection, on the head of public faith, to the system which he meant to propose; for, he should recommend, that not only all the several funds then consolidated should become chargeable with the public debt, but that every other resource of the country of any description whatsoever, should be a collateral security for the payment of those debts-even the aids of the current year. Yet, notwithstanding his opinion of this right of the Legislature to modify its own securities, he was still of opinion, that it ought not to be done, if it could possibly be avoided, without the consent of the several creditors, which it had been the constant practice of Parliament to take, whenever it proceeded upon any such measure. This consent was to be taken by allowing a proper time for the public creditors to make their objections; and, if in that time none were made, to construe their silence into acquiescence. This mode he was desirous to adopt in the present instance. On the subject of the funds, he contended, that none of them could possibly be affected in any disadvantageous manner by the new modification. Having thus, he hoped, clearly demonstrated the eligibility of this plan, as well from the advantages likely to result from it to trade and revenue, as from its being completely free from any objection in respect to public credit; having, he trusted, made it perfectly intelligible to every gentleman, he should proceed to explain how he proposed to carry it into execution. He was persuaded, that every gentleman who approved of the plan, would feel a desire to co-operate with him as strenuously as possible to carry it into effect, and in so very complicated and detailed a subject would be willing to dispense with as much form as possible towards its speedy completion. He should not, therefore, enter at present into the detail of all the several resolutions by which the plan was to be supported, but should satisfy himself with having them all understood as having been read pro formá; proposing, however, on such of them as were of most consequence, and likely to be attended with the greatest variety of opinion, to trouble the House with his sentiments more at large, and pledging himself that he would not suffer any resolution of the whole volume (for opened it with such extraordinary clearness and perspicuity, that he thought it did not become him, or those who, like him, unfortunately felt it to be their duty frequently to oppose the measures of Government, to content themselves with a sullen acquiescence; but it behoved them to rise up manfully, and doing justice to the right hon. gentleman's merit, to return him thanks on behalf of themselves and the country, for having in so masterly and intelligible a manner brought forth a plan of consolidation of duties which promised ease and accommodation to the merchants, and all those concerned in the trade and commerce of the country, and advantage and increase of the revenue. they amounted to nearly three thousand in number) which appeared to him of considerable importance to pass, without calling the attention of the committee particularly to it-that a subject of such importance might have the most ample discussion in all its essential points. He had given no ordinary share of attention to this business-he had not left one unconsulted from whom any information could be obtained-the plan had been referred to the Board of Revenue, and had received their perfect approbation-the greatest diligence had been used to circulate it among the most diligent and respectable of those persons who were most immediately concerned in its operation-the trading interest; and he was happy to say, that it was received by them all with the highest satisfaction, and he flattered himself that he came forward on the subject, supported by the best of all possible authorities, the information of the most enlightened persons on all parts of the business, and the universal consent of those who were most interested in the event. But as it was a question of such great importance, and ran into so very extensive a detail, he recommended it to gentlemen to pay it their most serious attention in all its branches, that the good intentions of those who were instrumental in framing it might not be in any instance frustrated by those mistakes, inaccuracies, or even clerical errors, to which so very complicated a subject must necessarily be liable. He should content himself for the present with barely moving a general preliminary resolution, by which the committee would go no farther than the adoption of the main principle, and the discussion of the more minute questions which must arise upon it, would be left open to their future judgment; and as many of those questions would require a very ample consideration, he should not wish to proceed farther in the committee until the ensuing Thursday. He concluded by moving a resolution to the following purport:-"That all duties of Customs, Excise, and certain duties of Stamps, do cease and determine, and that other duties be substituted in their stead." -In the motion were included certain specific exceptions, as the duties on malt, mum, cyder, perry, &c. Mr. Burke said, that upon the whole, the measure proposed, was, in itself so obviously necessary, beneficial, and desirable, and the right hon. gentleman had Sir Grey Cooper declared, that he had not the least objection to the plan. He added that this scheme had made some considerable progress, during the time in which a noble lord had presided in the Treasury; that in the years 1780 and 1781 he had, by order of the noble lord, often seen, and indeed carried on, a correspondence on this subject, with a very intelligent commissioner of the customs, who now, much to his own honour and to the advantage of the public, served his country in another important office. The noble lord had it much at heart to bring this plan to the maturity at which it had now arrived, and the right hon. gentleman had stated and explained the whole proposition, and all its parts, with so much perspicuity, and thrown a matter of great complexity into so clear an arrangement, that, as far as he at present understood it, the plan commanded his entire approbation. He had always conceived, that the chief difficulty in carrying this plan into execution, was the necessity of changing and altering the appropriation of the duties specifically destined by acts of parliament, for the security of the credi-tors of the state at different periods, particularly the public creditors, who, by the Acts of the 1st and 3rd of George 1, anterior to the establishment of the sinking fund, had a valuable priority and prefe rence in the payment of the interest of those debts, which were declared to be national debts before the year 1716.-Sir Grey admitted that it was competent to that House, to vary the security given to the public creditors, in the case stated by the right hon. gentleman, of a duty repealed, and substituting another in its place, with the counter security of the sinking fund; but that being now gone, by the substitution of one general fund, in place of the aggregate fund, and the surplusses, no variation or shifting of the appropriation of security could be made consistently with the extreme delicacy with which public faith to creditors ought to be preserved, without the consent of those who were to be affected by any arrangement, however advantageous to the public. The right hon. gentleman seemed to be perfectly aware of this, and not to intend the least deviation from these principles; and he understood that provision was to be made in the Bill, for such notifications as should prevent any creditor from losing the preference which he now possessed, if within a limited time he signified his dissent to the plan. Mr. Samuel Thornton corroborated that part of Mr. Pitt's speech, in which he stated the great inconveniencies under which merchants laboured at present, from the perplexed state of the duties and customs which had so long prevailed. He gave his full assent to the plan proposed, and declared that he had conversed with several intelligent officers of the customs, and many respectable merchants upon it; all of whom agreed, that it would be a most essential accommodation to the business of shipping, entering, and landing of goods. Mr. Fox believed that he thought exactly with the right hon. gentleman, who had so clearly and perspicuously opened the plan to the House; and that the objection which he had entertained, had been totally done away in the latter part of the right hon. gentleman's speech. What he meant was this: did the right hon. gentleman say, that due notification would be given to every public creditor, and that all such as were afraid, and did not approve of taking the new security of the general fund, with the collateral security of the aids of the year, would have the option of the appropriated fund which the right hon. gentleman had described? If this were so, he certainly had no objection, because he had ever contended, that the security given to the public creditor, when he lent his money, ought not to be changed without the consent of such public creditor. As the resolutions upon the Commercial Treaty with France were to be blended and joined to the resolutions for the consolidation of the customs, he hoped, that when the right hon. gentleman came to those resolutions which related to the Commercial Treaty, he would afford the committee an opportunity of considering each of those resolutions distinctly. Mr. Pitt begged leave to assure the right hon. gentleman that he had correctly understood him: he certainly meant that there should be a full time allowed for notification to every public creditor of the intended change of the security, and that each creditor should have his option, either of accepting the new security of the general fund, with the collateral security of the aids of the year, which was undoubtedly a better security than he had at present, or of taking the other security of an equivalent. He could not admit the argument of the right hon. gentleman to the full extent, that the House had no right to change the security of the public creditor; because, if it were laid down that the House had in no case, where its own convenience and advantage clearly suggested it, and where it could be done without any sort of danger to the public creditor, a right to change the security, a tax found upon trial to be either inexpedient, unequal, or unproductive, could not be repealed, and a new tax substituted in lieu of it; which would, undoubtedly, be a circumstance inconvenient in the extreme. With regard to the resolutions upon the treaty of commerce with France, they were necessarily and unavoidably implicated and connected with the resolutions relative to the consolidation of the duties on customs, and unless considered at the same time, it would be impossible for us to keep the stipulations of the Treaty. The resolution was agreed to; after which the chairman was directed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Debate in the Commons on the Repeal of the East India Judicature Bill.] Feb. 27. The House went into a committee on the Bengal petitions, for the repeal of this Bill. After the counsel had retired from the bar, Mr. Dempster said, that on the next open day he should move for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the East India Judicature Bill, agreeably to the prayer of the petitions. Mr. Pitt observed, that there was sufficient time for the hon. gentleman to make his motion, and that instead of waiting for an open day, he ought to avail himself of the present day, which was kept open merely to accommodate him, though other very important business had the acts petitioned against put it in the power of the Governor-general to seize and imprison every British subject who should presume particularly to state the variety of oppressions under which a native might unfortunately languish. been necessarily postponed for that purpose. It was absurd, after having had the benefit of counsel, for the committee to adjourn immediately, as it were in order to forget the arguments of the counsel, before they should come to a vote upon the subject. Mr. Dempster answered, that his reason for deferring his motion was the thinness of the House. Mr. Pitt contended, that it was rather a singularly odd occasion for calling counsel to the bar; but it was still more extraordinary to break up without proceeding any farther. Mr. Sheridan said, that the House was too thin to make a motion of such great national importance; but if gentlemen did not mean to object to a motion for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Acts prayed against, he presumed that his hon. friend I would have no objection to make the motion at the present juncture. It was, in his judgment, a motion of great magnitude, and required mature deliberation. Many gentlemen had not had the opportunity of hearing the arguments of counsel, and therefore they ought to be afforded an opportunity of learning the nature of those arguments. Mr. Dundas observed, that, although the counsel had, with great ability, done ample justice to their clients, they nevertheless could not be said to have advanced any arguments that had not been urged again and again. Mr. Dempster declared, that many gentlemen had gone away under the idea that no motion would be made. He then moved, "That the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again." Mr. Pitt objected, and moved, by way of amendment, "That the chairman do leave the chair." Mr. Burke contended, that a great deal of argument might still be adduced in favour of the original motion. It gave him great concern to find that British subjects in India were not to be permitted to enjoy the same privileges which British subjects in England enjoyed. If they were to be deprived of their freedom, if English mouths and English pens were not to be allowed to be exercised in favour of oppressed natives, those natives must lose their freedom entirely, and no complaint against persons in office could ever be preferred with effect, so as to reach the knowledge, and challenge the inquiry of the Parliament of Great Britain, because Major Scott begged leave to assure the right hon. gentleman, that he wished as earnestly as any man that the Bill might undergo a reconsideration: but, with respect to its having any operation as to the natives, it certainly would not. They would not complain to Great Britain, and all that was necessary for their relief at all times, was a strong efficient government upon the spot, composed of men of honour and integrity, and well supported from this country. As to the government of Bengal, it had ever been, and it ever must be, despotic. We had succeeded a despotic government, the Mahometan; but he spoke from full conviction, and from the best information from gentlemen who had been in parts of Hindostan which he had never seen, when he asserted, that of all the governments in Hindostan, the government of Bengal, under the English, was the best, for the happiness of the natives, the security of private property, and for the lenity with which the people were treated. Let the right hon. gentleman inquire from those who had seen the Hindoo and Mahometan governments, either Madajee Scindia's, which was a very considerable government, or any other he pleased, and he would find that the government of Bengal was more populous, the country better cultivated, and the natives more secure than they were under any other, or than they had been under any of the Mahometan rulers, from its first invasion. Mr. Burke maintained, that the worst that could be said of any government was, that it was despotic. If the British government established in India was despotic, so far from its being the best possible government for the country, all circumstances considered, it must be the worst, because of the infinite distance of India from the seat of supreme authority. If Englishmen in India were deprived of their rights and privileges, a total end was put to freedom in India, since an Englishman who suffered his liberties to be taken from him without cause, and without resistance on his part, was an Englishman depraved, fit and ready not only to enslave himself, but to enslave others. It was natural, he obeserved, for men in power |