[Sess. 1818.

"The Prince Regent, acting in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, thinks it right to inform the House of Commons, that Treaties of Marriage are in negotiation between his royal highness the duke of Clarence and the princess of Saxe Meiningen, eldest daughter of the late reigning duke of Saxe Meiningen; and also between his royal highness the duke of Cambridge and the princess of Hesse, youngest daughter of the landgrave Frederick, and niece of the elector of Hesse.

"After the afflicting calamity which the Prince Regent and the nation have sustained in the loss of his Royal Highness's beloved and only child, the princess Charlotte, his Royal Highness is fully persuaded that the House of Commons will feel how essential it is to the best interests of the country that his Royal Highness should be enabled to make a suitable provision for such of his royal brothers as shall have contracted marriage with the consent of the Crown: and his Royal Highness has received so many proofs of the affectionate attachment of this House to his majesty's person and family, as leave him no room to doubt of the concurrence and assistance of this House in (VOL. XXXVIII.)

enabling him to make the necessary arrangements for this important purpose." G. P. R."

The Message having been brought up and read from the Chair,

Lord Castlereagh said, that conformably to precedent in former cases, he should move that the Message be referred for consideration to a committee of the House to-morrow. He should refrain this evening from entering into any explanation of the message, which, as matters now stood, it would be not only advisable, but more consonant with the practice of the House to enter upon to-morrow. For the present, he should abstain from taking any proceeding upon the message, which might have the appearance of pledging the House to an express line of conduct ultimately, and would merely move," That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, to return his Royal Highness the thanks of this House, for his most gracious communication of the intended marriages between his royal highness the duke of Clarence and the princess of Saxe Meiningen, eldest daughter of the late reigning duke of Saxe Meiningen, and also between his royal highness the duke of Cambridge and the princess of Hesse, youngest daughter of the landgrave Frederick, and niece of the elector of Hesse: to express our entire satisfaction at the prospect of these alliances with protestant princesses of illustrious families; and to assure his Royal Highness, that this House will immediately proceed to the consideration of his Royal Highness's graeious message, in (B)

such a manner as shall demonstrate the zeal, duty, and affectionate attachment of this House to his majesty's person and family, and a due regard to the importance of any measure which may tend to secure the succession of the Crown in his majesty's illustrious house."

Mr. Tierney said, he could have no objection to agree to the proposition of the noble lord. Not having been one of those favoured members, who had had the advantage of hearing the noble lord's views with respect to the sums which ought to be asked from the House, of course he could at present form no opinion on the subject. He could not help thinking it was not very respectful to the House to summon certain members out of the ministerial side of the House, who had in confidence communicated to them what it was not fitting should be made known to the House till to-morrow [Hear, hear!]. These meetings, it would seem, were always called when any new measure was to be submitted to the House; for ministers were convinced, that unless their measures had such a previous rehearsal, they could not carry them. Nothing could be done without a previous discussion in a meeting of fifty or sixty ministerial gentlemen. Such had been the nature of the meeting at lord Liverpool's that morning.

Lord Castlereagh said, he was not aware of any thing unconstitutional or unusual in occasional meetings of this nature, nor could he see any parliamentary usage to preclude them.

Mr. Protheroe said, if the reports which were in circulation were true, he thought an opportunity ought to be given to the people of England to see how every individual representative acted on such an occasion as the present; and he should therefore probably feel it his duty to move a call of the House. If sufficient time was afforded before the discussion came on, he should have no such duty to perform; but if it was not afforded, he should move the postponement of the discussion.

Lord Castlereagh said, that in the course he proposed to adopt, he was only following the invariable practice of parliament, which was to name a day for taking into consideration the royal message. If a call of the House should be moved for, he should not give it any opposition.

Mr. Brougham contended, that under the present circumstances of the country, it was necessary for the House, if it valued its own character, the peace of the nation,

and the security of the throne, to take every step in all it did, to carry the voice of the country along with them. He should be disposed to support the motion of any honourable member who should propose that before proceeding any further on the subject, the usual caution should be taken to secure a full attendance, and that there be laid before the House a correct statement of facts, containing the sums already granted to, and annually in possession of, some of the members of the royal family.

Mr. Methuen had been anticipated in what he meant to say by his hon. and learned friend. He was decidedly of opinion that an account should be laid before the House of the income of the royal dukes, from naval and military appointments, from the civil list, and from the droits of the Admiralty, and should make a motion to that effect.

Lord Castlereagh did not intend to oppose the motion, but it must be postponed till the present question was disposed of.

Mr. M. A. Taylor said, he was surprised, after all they had heard and seen of the distresses of the country, that any message should be brought down to the House, sanctioned by the confidential servants of the Crown, calling on parliament to give away large sums, without laying before them information to show the necessity of the measure. He was one of those who were desirous that the House should withhold every allowance till the necessity of it was clearly proved. He considered the practice of calling together a certain number of members, for the purpose of taking their opinion whether such an application ought to be made, a practice highly objectionable. No man was more attached than himself to the house of Brunswick. He believed the support of the throne to be essential to the happiness and security of the people at large. But, in giving the royal family every proper support, it was necessary for him to look also at the (interests and feelings of the people, and to examine what the finances of the country enabled it to pay. Now, he would appeal to any gentleman who had heard the discussions on the leather tax, whether this was a time to make any grant of the public money that was not justly called for. They ought to see what burthens the people could bear, before they voted a single shilling for such a purpose as the present.

Mr. Curwen trusted that the House

would not be called upon to vote one single shilling, till after the chancellor of the exchequer had laid before it a detailed statement of the supplies, and ways and means of the year.

Mr. Brand could not see any fair reason why the noble lord should refuse to mention the amount of the grants he intended to propose. Information was due to the public, when a grant, reported to be so large, was intended, in the present circumstances of the country.

Lord Castlereagh thought it would be unfair, as well as unsatisfactory to the House, to state the sums proposed, without being able to enter into all the requisite details and explanations.

Lord Lascelles said, that he was one of those who had attended the meeting alluded to during the early part of the discussion. He thought he should not take too much upon himself if he stated that what had transpired there had not met with the satisfaction of several others besides himself. He would not say more at present, but he would repeat, that in what he had mentioned, he had not stated his own feelings alone.

Mr. Lyttelton wished to know, whether the proposition to be submitted to-morrow would include any other individuals than the illustrious persons mentioned in the message?

Lord Castlereagh declined giving any

answer.

Mr. Bennet asked, whether ministers had not communicated to their select committee, that they intended to propose 19,000/. in addition a year to one of the royal dukes, besides 19,000l. outfit, and 12,000l. a year to each of the others?

Sir Charles Monck said, it was a very singular proceeding for his majesty's ministers to declare to a private meeting of their own friends, what they refused to communicate to the House.

Mr. Calcraft said, he should be glad if any of the gentlemen who were present at the meeting alluded to, if they were not bound to keep silence on the subject, would be so kind as to state, for the information of the House, what was the amount of the sums proposed to the royal persons to whom they were to be granted. If any gentleman would have the kindness to furnish that information, the House would be much better prepared for the discussion to-morrow.

Lord Stanley said, he wished to be informed either by the noble lord or by the

Speaker, whether it was consistent with the usages of the House, or whether, in fact, there was any precedent in which the House, in their vote of thanks to the throne for such a communication, went further than the message itself?

Lord Castlereagh said, it was not meant by the proposed Address to commit the House upon any of the points mentioned in the communication from the throne. It gave no countenance to any particular amount of grant, or in fact to any grant at all. The Address left the House perfectly open. It did not pledge the House to any thing; it contained a mere expression of thanks, as usual, for the communication, and a promise to take it into consideration.

Mr. Brougham said, he had not less regard to the security of the succession to the Crown, than the noble lord, but he thought that some regard should be paid to the interests of the people, which were not at variance with the interest of the Crown, but closely connected with it. There was an omission in the Address, which, if it was not supplied, would prevent him from concurring in it. The House pledged itself to take such measures as a regard to the succession to the throne required. To this he had not the least objection; but he thought it fit the House should declare its regard also to the state of the people, and its sense of the burthens under which they labour, and the privations they undergo. He should, therefore, move to add after the word "House," these words," and to the burthened state of the people of this country."

Lord Castlereagh said, the amendment appeared to him quite unnecessary, and would seem to imply, before any specific grant was proposed, that there was, in some quarter, not a due regard to the burthens of the people. There was nothing in the Address which called in question the principle, that the interests of the people should be attended to. Such amendments were not, he believed, upon such occasions, recognized by the usage of parliament. For these reasons, he should oppose the one now proposed.

Sir Gilbert Heathcote thought that nothing could be more moderate than the amendment of his hon. and learned friend. When the House was called upon to make large provisions, there was nothing more natural than to take into consideration the situation of the country. He did not

feel all that joy that the noble lord perhaps might feel on occasion of these marriages. They were unlike marriages in private life. No one of them ever occurred without the country being burthened. They were always accompanied with a considerable addition to the revenue of the personages who were the parties. At present a man had only to walk about with his eyes open, to see that the country was in a most distressed condition. They ought to consider before they added even a single sixpence to the public burthens.

Mr. Tierney said, that the proposed amendment did not pledge the House to any particular line of conduct, any more than the other parts of the Address. The amendment was particularly necessary at present, because they were going to do more than they had ever been called upon to do in one day before. They knew that a meeting had been held, at which the subject was discussed. They were not put in possession of what had transpired there, but they were informed, though not from the highest authority, at least from one of the most respectable members of the House, that what was proposed was such as ought not to be entertained. They should take care then, not to commit themselves. They were ready to discharge their duty to the Crown; but when called upon to do it under such suspicious circumstances, was it too much to pledge themselves in the Address, that in attending to the interests of the Crown, they would not disregard those of the people?

The gallery was then cleared for a division, and strangers remained excluded for nearly three quarters of an hour, during which time an interesting discussion took place, of which the following is the sub

stance:

when he thought that it signified nothing to the successful opposition of the proposed measure, whether the vote was given in this or in a future stage. He pressed his amendment for the very purpose of deterring ministers, in the earliest possible stage, from going on with such a measure; and he was confident that the amendment, if carried, would have the most salutary consequences, as well to the interests of the country, as to the stability of the government, by putting an end at once to a proposition fraught with the very worst consequences to both.

Mr. Lee Keck could not avoid declaring the course which he felt himself bound to adopt. Disapproving highly of the proposition made at the meeting at lord Liverpool's, he should decidedly oppose it; and, though he wished the amendment had not been moved, still he felt he had no choice, but must give it his support.

Mr. Plunkett wished his hon. and learned friend would consent to withdraw the amendment. He entirely concurred in opinion with him, and when the question was brought forward, he should strenuously support him to the utmost of his power. But he was apprehensive that it might wear an appearance very foreign to his hon. and learned friend's intentions, if the House departed from the precedents of former addresses, by referring to the topic of economy, not to be found in the message, and thereby seeming to insinuate that the Crown had improperly omitted that important consideration. On the merits of the question he heartily agreed

with his hon. and learned friend.

Sir J. Newport expressed his regret at being obliged to differ so widely from his right hon. friend in his view of the amendment, which he regarded as absolutely necessary, after what had passed on both sides. It was a great mistake in his right hon. friend to suppose that the amendment could refer to any thing but the conduct of ministers. The message was their act, and if the omission was censured by the amendment, the censure fell upon the constitutional advisers of the Crown alone.

Lord Lascelles said, he was one of those who were present at the meeting at lord Liverpool's, and he there felt that he could not agree to the proposition of ministers. He was prepared to oppose it by his vote when it should come forward; but he declined supporting the amendment, or voting in the present stage.